What the...?!?!

Discussion of custom parts made for the Castle Theme
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Daimyo
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Post by Daimyo »

Formendacil wrote:
JPinoy wrote: BTW, some of the LOTR weapons like those Elvish swords aren't that much different in shape from an Ancient Philippine "Panabas". Sith-like tools originally used for farming, which later made its way into the battle field. They varied from 2 ft to 4ft long.

If anything the prop designers in the LOTR films probably just "borrowed" the design and added Celtic decor to make it look elvish.

The top panabas is the elvish-like one. The middle one (3rd from top) I like to call the "hockey stick of death".
As I have stated before (to the consistent irritation of those listening to me in person), the 'elvish' swords from the LR movies are NOT legitimate Tolkien: Tolkien's elves are very much north-western European. They look like handsome Europeans, they speak European-styled languages, they fight with European-style weapons. In the Book of Lost Tales, Egalmoth is specifically singled out as the ONLY elf in Gondolin to fight with a sword that wasn't straight. While it is possible that Tolkien later decided the Egalmoth bore a normal sword like Glorfindel, Ecthelion and the others, the conception that elven swords are straight remains, as evidenced by the predisposition of orcs towards curved or bent blades, and by the representation of Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting as straight swords. As the only swords of elvish make in the LR or the Hobbit to be shown, they are the best examples of elven sword-styles, not some Peter Jackson movie prop. (My apologies to all the Peter Jackson freaks out there: I loved the movies, they are my favourites, but details like Arwen's sword and Earnur's crown really irritate me. :) )
Yes, but other elves, IE the Sindar, and what we would call the Wood elves, use curved blades. In fact, only these type sof elves used these swords, while others used straight swords. You're also forgetting the elves of Beleriand are dead at the time of LOTR.
By the way, they made the weapons that way to give a unique sense of culture and elegance, and from what I can see JP, your "panabas" isn't even close to what Legolas' daggers look like. So, they didn't steal any design.
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Daimyo
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Post by Daimyo »

Bricksidge wrote:
JPinoy wrote:Some of you really need to learn Eastern/Asian history more, otherwise you'll keep thinking non-Euro arms and armor as "fantasy".
No. You need to learn that not everyone cares about Eastern/Asian history, Eastern/Asian weapons, or Eastern/Asian armies.

For that matter, not everyone cares about Chalcidians, Phagians, "Yeshua", or the Koguryo either.
True. And Jp, talk about castle instead of Ancient World, and Philippine stuff, for a change. All this "Asian Oriental weapons" stuff gets REALLY, REALLY< old.
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Post by footsteps »

Daimyo wrote:True. And Jp, talk about castle instead of Ancient World, and Philippine stuff, for a change. All this "Asian Oriental weapons" stuff gets REALLY, REALLY< old.
At the risk of starting "something" (actually, I think it's already started :wink: ) I'll chime in and say that I rather enjoy JPinoy's postings. I'm fairly clueless on the 'medieval' histories of other regions and am willing to learn new things. I'm always learning new things from this site. It never gets "old" -- though, unfortunately, I do (at least chronologically if not playfully).

Just my two cents....

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Post by TwoTonic Knight »

Bricksidge wrote:
JPinoy wrote:Some of you really need to learn Eastern/Asian history more, otherwise you'll keep thinking non-Euro arms and armor as "fantasy".
No. You need to learn that not everyone cares about Eastern/Asian history, Eastern/Asian weapons, or Eastern/Asian armies.

For that matter, not everyone cares about Chalcidians, Phagians, "Yeshua", or the Koguryo either.
For the record, this was about a set of apparently custom made helmets and armor, and I think a number of them have been correctly identified as chinese in inspirtation. So, by the very nature of the thread, asian armor must be discussed. I am curious to know the time frame of these creations - are they from the same age as medieval europe?

I do understand that things like greek helmets do exit the castle period, so I try not to run on too much about the fine points of the naming of greek helmets, or point out that that big round shield they carry is really an aspis and not a hoplon (Oops! Well, I just did :wink: ) because no one particularly cares (well, maybe a few).
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Formendacil
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Post by Formendacil »

Daimyo wrote: Yes, but other elves, IE the Sindar, and what we would call the Wood elves, use curved blades. In fact, only these type sof elves used these swords, while others used straight swords. You're also forgetting the elves of Beleriand are dead at the time of LOTR.
By the way, they made the weapons that way to give a unique sense of culture and elegance, and from what I can see JP, your "panabas" isn't even close to what Legolas' daggers look like. So, they didn't steal any design.
Daimyo, you continue to miss my point, which is this: Tolkien's mythology/legendarium, every part of it, be it from the First Age, the Second, or the Third, is conceived to be a northwestern European tale: its denizens are Europeans, in particular, Englishmen (hobbits, men, dwarves, and elves are all conceived as ENGLISH hobbits, men, dwarves, and elves). The weapons and other tools of the middle-earth-ian societies should reflect this. It should also have been quite possible for Peter Jackson and Co. to create a cultural look for the elves that was completely different from that of hobbits or men while still adhering to what Tolkien decided regarding HIS cultures. The differences would be similar (although hopefully not identical to) the differences between fairytales and true medieval times: both often had straight swords, and purport to occupy the same space in time, but they are very different.
Furthermore, there is no evidence at all that the Sindar, the Nandor, the Laiquendi, the Silvan Elves, or the Avari used curved blades. In fact, the weapon most commonly identified with the Sindar is the axe. If you don't believe me, check the Silmarillion. There are at least two references to the 'Axes of the Sindar'. The only Sindar ever said specifically to carry swords were Thingol, Beleg, and Thranduil. Thingol and Beleg both came to sticky ends (aided and abetted by their swords), while Thranduil (the Sinda king of the Silvan elves) was carrying Orcrist after stealling it from Thorin.

Anyway, if you were able get through this preachy and outraged epistle: congratulations. I hope I didn't mortally wound anyone. This is after all, just my opinion (backed up, of course, by Tolkien's own works), and for non-Tolkien elves, I don't dare speak at all.
I'm surprised you guys have made it this far w/o the thread getting locked...this is like what happened in Anthony's Custom Weapons topic...
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Post by JPinoy »

Bricksidge wrote: No. You need to learn that not everyone cares about Eastern/Asian history, Eastern/Asian weapons, or Eastern/Asian armies.

For that matter, not everyone cares about Chalcidians, Phagians, "Yeshua", or the Koguryo either.
:roll:

Funny.... 2 billion people care about Yeshua....... I think they're called Christians. So much so that some of you make CROSS patterned stickers for CRUSADER minifigs.

RedBean seems to like the people who founded Western Civilization like the Greeks, of whom the Chalcidians are a part of.

As far as Asia... the vast majority of the people who populate Europe (ethnic-wise) have their roots from Central Asia.
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Post by Troy T. Moore »

Sooo anyways....... C'mon lads, there is no need to start flaming anyone. We all have different ideas, and that's OK. There are a few strong personalities here, and it is not a competition of who knows the most or can get the last word. I appreciate all the different comments, from Tolkien to Ancient China and everywhere inbetween. For me personally, I like western European castle, which is what classic castle depicts (as has been pointed out). That's not to say that we can't expand our horizons to Vikings, Mongols, Romans or Kalliwaylians (sorry JPinoy for the spelling, that is ancient Phillipines.) Yeah, yeah, some of you will read this and think I'm some kind of "Pollyanna". That's OK, all I want is for everyone to get along by not taking exception to what another posts (translation, when it comes to these sort of topics we should all be entitled to an opinion)
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Post by Blasterman »

For the record - My god is Crom, sitting high on his mountain. Seriously.

Back on topic - "new sculpts on the block"

I'm certainly not knocking the guy who made these. I think he did a
wonderful job, with exception to the cartoony visored helm. Wonder
what happened there? It's almost like he doesn't have any reference
books on European armour, based on the differences of the sculpts.

Unless of course, he meant to make it funny looking.

Either way, I look forward to seeing more from him.
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Post by doctorsparkles »

Back on topic... great idea. I'd hate to see this discussion locked, and I'd hate to think that I had helped bring that about by participating in an off-topic argument...
Anyway, I just took another look at his sculpts, and though my feelings remain the same for the helms, I'm beginning to like the torso armor. I'm not completely sure about the design on the front, and I would have done something different with the shoulders... but overall, it looks quite nice. It looks kind of like the UFO/Ogel armor, except that you can use a variety of helms with it. There should be more pieces like this out there.
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Post by Bricksidge »

JPinoy wrote:
Bricksidge wrote: No. You need to learn that not everyone cares about Eastern/Asian history, Eastern/Asian weapons, or Eastern/Asian armies.

For that matter, not everyone cares about Chalcidians, Phagians, "Yeshua", or the Koguryo either.
:roll:

Funny.... 2 billion people care about Yeshua....... I think they're called Christians. So much so that some of you make CROSS patterned stickers for CRUSADER minifigs.

RedBean seems to like the people who founded Western Civilization like the Greeks, of whom the Chalcidians are a part of.

As far as Asia... the vast majority of the people who populate Europe (ethnic-wise) have their roots from Central Asia.
Let it be known that this message was responded to privately. I am glad that the thread has moved away from this topic, and back onto the intended topic of the thread.

That is all.
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Post by Red Bean »

Yes, let's get back on topic. :D

I don't really know much about half the stuffs referred to in this post, but like Footsteps said, I enjoy threads like this because I am learning about stuffs that I like. So I hope knowledgable ones like Blasterman and JPinoy will continue to enlighten us with their erudition. For the record, so I don't mislead anyone, even though I 'make' stuffs I don't want to pretend I am the master of anything in particular. For instance, the names Chalcidians and Corinthian that are popping up in the other thread, I'm still having trouble figuring out. All I did was tried to sculpt something from a picture I saw in a book without actually knowing much about the object in the first place. But thanks to places like this, I'm learning more about stuffs that only attracted me with their image in the first place, which I think is the most important thing.

And now, once more without pretending to be the master of anything, I can tell you that the Qing armor referred to earlier in this thread is a set of ceremonial armor of the Manchurian people who lived in the North of the Great Wall (considered outside China at the time) but eventually invaded China to form the Qing Dynasty. It may have had practical usage in its earlier days but it eventually became more of a ceremonial thing, mainly worn by the noblemen to royal hunting parties and such. The Qing dynasty lasted for something like 2 centuries but I'd date the armor back to its earlier days when it was still used in practical warfare, which means roughly the 16th/17th century. Please note these stuffs came from memories only so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. :wink:

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Post by Blasterman »

So I hope knowledgable ones like Blasterman and JPinoy will continue to enlighten us with their erudition.
Easy there :shock: , I know a little about the Roman/Greek Empires, and much less about any Asian Empires. TTK is the man with the knowledge on that, along with JPinoy.

I think you did a fine job on the helmet, Isaac, regardless of where you saw it or what you based it from. I only hope that you can get this stuff produced one day, so I won't have to do it! I just paid a visit to my manufacturer, with a fairly extensive list of additional European medieval pieces to be made, so someone out there needs to tackle the more "ancient" themes. At least for right now.
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Post by erikut »

ok what really makes me mad is that the one who made these great weapons is not a member here and therfore cant say its his/her´s
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Post by Luís »

If you talk sooo much of get on topic well never get in.
Look at us, discusting about a reply. Shame on us.
But it's oriental so, lets go to another topic.
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Post by The Blue Knight »

Honestly! All this fussing over the miscellanious nomenclature. Some of you take this all way too seriously. we're a bunch of AFOLs sharpening our points over plastic bricks!

Though I didn't know B-Man was a Conan-ish heathen! :)

Seriously, and back on topic. I for one am glad to find another person offering us alternatives. I agree that the visored helm is cartoony, but the Chinese-ish stuff (great catch RB) looks good. Can someone better versed in computer ninja contact this guy (who besides Jennifer among us isn't--we need more females!) and welcome him in?
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