Crusaders, Lion Knights, Kings men, which is the right name?

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Sir Terrance
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Crusaders, Lion Knights, Kings men, which is the right name?

Post by Sir Terrance »

Many people call the same faction many different things, however so does LEGO! In this scan LEGO calls them the Crusaders: http://library.brickshelf.com/scans/cat ... us-03.html

Here called the King's Men (Well, not really but called King's Catapult so that must be what they mean.) http://www.brickset.com/search.aspx?Set=1480-1

LEGO has not used Lion Knights for any sets that I am aware of. I have posted questions asking what is the correct name and now wanted to share my findings.
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Post by Daimyo »

A good topic. i prefer Crusaders, it is less confusing than lion Knights (There are at least three Lion-crest factions!) and cooler sounding than king's Men.
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Post by ThomasBrickheim »

In dutch they were also called "Leeuwenhart ridders" which means Lionheart knights. http://library.brickshelf.com/scans/cat ... nl-23.html But they were also called lionheart knights. Well, in dutch they were http://library.brickshelf.com/scans/cat ... nl-41.html
And "Kasteelbewoners" , "castle-inhabitant" or "castle-occupant". I dont know which word is better. See http://library.brickshelf.com/scans/cat ... nl-20.html
They were never called "kruisridders" which is the dutch word for crasuder.
But the strange thing is, they were never called "leeuwenridders", "lion-knights". before 1989 not any knight was called anything at all. They were knights, archers, guards. nothing about lions or falcons. Remarkable. 8)

What i wanted to tell is that in dutch they also have different names. I think it is the same in every language.[/i]
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Post by Daimyo »

ERR... Those first pic's are of Royal Knights, not crusaders. Just correcting friendly.
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Post by Jojo »

Hello!


In Germany the only way to find out what LEGO called anything they release is looking into the catalogue because the names of the sets are not printed on the boxes here. This means the catalogues are the ultimate authority when it comes to names.

OK. But there ain't names in the catalogue! They simply didn't give the classic Legoland factions any names except the Forestmen. They are called "Robin Hood and his men". But the sets don't have names like that but only the description to each set says that.

In the 1987 catalogue the text says (in German of course): "Down the bridge, the King arrives!" But it's not clear which faction has the king though it's obvious because red and gold along with the lion emblem are royal symbols.

In the small 1987 LEGOLAND catalogue the text calls the lord of the Viking Voyager 6049 "Knut the Great from Jutland", and he visits the "Black Knight from the LEGOLAND® Castle." Hm, there were two castles in the catalogue. So it was up to you to decide.

The Black Knights = Black Monarch = Dragon Knights are just called "The knights from the Black Dragon Castle" in German catalogues.

In 1992 they name the factions officially[*] for the first time. There's a headline for each group of themed Castle sets: "Wolfsbande" = Wolfpack, "Robin Hood", "Schwarze Ritter" = Black Knights (Black Monarch), "Ritter vom Löwenorden" (Knights of the Order of the Lion) = so called Crusaders. The Black Falcons didn't have any castle in 1992 but only appeared in Black Knights sets, so maybe this is a reason why they are also called "Black Knights" in Lugnet?

[*] I'm not sure if it was really TLC that named the factions in this catalogue. Most likely they let some regional advertising agencies make the layout and accompanying texts in the respective catalogues for each country/region. Not even the set names in UK and the US are identical. So language is not a criteria. The most "official" texts are probably those in the Danish cataloge.

1993, the Dragon Masters arrive. In German they are called "Ritter vom Drachenorden" = Knights of the Order of the Dragon, as opposed to the "Black Knights" that are a faction of their own. Majisto is called "Cerlin the Sorcerer" (set name for 6020).

In the German 1994 catalogue the Dragon Master's dragon is called Dragomil by the way...

1995: The Royal Knights are called "Königliche Ritter" (Royal Knights) in German :-) The King is called Richard.

1997: The Bat Lord is called "Graf Fledermaus", this is "Bat Lord" :-)
The witch doesn't have a name. The faction is called "Bitterböse Buben", this is untranslatable... "~ bad boys, wicked guys"... something like that.

To sum it up: The classic factions don't have official names because it's not necassary: They have their coats of arms. So everybody may call them what he feels like. I called them after what I saw on their shields. This is "Eagles", "Lions" and "Dragons". But for the purpose of universal communication it is not wrong to call them in a way everybody knows what is meant. This is why I call the Eagle Knights "Black Falcons"....


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Post by coyote »

Hm ... and what about the different colour schemes? I imagine different families/clans within the same faction or maybe different branches of service.

And the unsolved problem of the hellebard knights from the early legoland sets?

I'd say there aren't too many factions: Falcons, Lions, Dragons, Fright Knights, Lion II. Forestmen/Dark Forest and Wolfpack aren't noble ;-)

And whole KK doesn't count as castle, either.
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Post by ThomasBrickheim »

Daimyo wrote:ERR... Those first pic's are of Royal Knights, not crusaders. Just correcting friendly.
My message is a little confusing. :)

What I meant to say is that the "crusaders" were called "Leeuwenhart ridders" in dutch. When the Royal Knights appeared they were also called "leeuwenhart ridders". That's what you can see at the first two pictures. And that's what i find remarkable.

For the other factions. The Black Knights were always called "Zwarte ridders", de Forestmen were called "Vrijbuiters" (according to my dictionary "freebooter" in english), "Drakenridders" for Dragonmasters, Wolfpack was called "Wolvenjagers" (=Wolf-hunters. This name doesn't make sense :S) and the Bat Lord was called Vleermuisridder (batknight)

Personally i like the german "Ritter vom Drachenorden".

Thomas
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crusaders or not

Post by gerkenz »

hmmm...
nice topic - I think "crusaders" is the best an less confusing way to call my fav. faction. maybe they would like to be called "classic lions" ;)

what about the "lion hearts" out of the set 1592 " town square" ? the are allthough a kind of "lovely" crusaders, aren't they ;)

@jojo: maybe the "black falcons" are just "white falcons"... :D
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Post by JPinoy »

There's only 1 Black Falcon faction.

1 Bat faction

3 Lion factions: Crusaders, Royal Knights, Knights Kingdom 1 (KK2 doesn't count)

2 Forest related factions...

Wolfpack, Bulls, are different yet I kinda see them as being related, in that they are both raider type factions.

But is there 2 or 3 Dragon related factions? I kinda think of the Black Knights and Black Monarchs as being one and the same...

IMO, I think there needs to be some remake of a faction (similar to Black Knights/Monarchs), but this time it should have a Red Dragon on its shield as well as have red dragons instead of the green ones the Dragon Masters had.
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Post by Jojo »

Hello!
JPinoy wrote:But is there 2 or 3 Dragon related factions? I kinda think of the Black Knights and Black Monarchs as being one and the same...
Why should they not be the same faction? Names don't count, es stated before. The shield design/colour counts along with the design of the minifigs. This said the knights from 6085 and 6086 are the same faction but the Dragon Masters are a completely different faction. LEGO (TLC) was just lazy and did not invent a new coat of arms when they released the Dragon Masters.


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Post by The Blue Knight »

I agree with Jojo about the Black Falcons. My best friend and I have called them the Eagles. Looked like a Germanic blazon to us and I don't recall falcons as being particularly royal. But I can accept Black Falcon as a naming convention amongst us AFOLs.

The Lions Knights are a different matter. As I have pointed out before anyone could have participated in a crusade. No one was stationed at the gate in Constantinople as you crossed over handing out standard "crusader" gear (no doubt it would have been sponsored by nike and pepsi). Lion Kinghts is an acceptable naming convention for us AFOLs to me. KK1 is an abomination. I have ridden myself of their defiling presence. I call them the Cartoon Lions because thier standard is so lame, certainly in comparison with the other much more realistic Lego standards before. As far as I'm concernec, let's pretend they never happened, shall we? :D As for KK2, I'll a set in my hands before I condemn it.

For me the 'forestmen' have always been Elves in the Tolkien sense, and the crossed halberds (another naming anomoly as they are too small for halberds, but too large for a battleaxe or Danish bearded axe). can be attached to anyone. Mine are attched to the Club Knighthood who just happen to occupy the throne of Surreand right now :D

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Post by doctorsparkles »

I always assumed that all of the Lion crest factions were one and the same, or at least closely related.
Whatever the case, I like the sound of "Knights of the Order of the Lion". A little verbose, but I think it works.
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Post by David Girard »

Jojo is true. Crusader is not a good name, because it doesn't identify to a faction.

Plus ! The name crusader appeared only in 1990. This faction existed since 1984. So the name they give in 1984 was Lions Knights and they were Lions Knights until 1990.

Crusader is only a function. It's not a faction. :wink:
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