Comparing 08' Castle to Tolkien

[CornLegoCorn]

Draugaer, good job, hehe, Although Knights are not obvious they exist, Knights of Gondor, And even the Rohirim (sorry if mis-spelled) are technically "Knights", Also as mentioned Knights of Dol Amroth.

I have a book titeled "The Atlas of Middle-Earth" It contains info on all the ages of it, When The large kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor were flourishing, yes there were vassels althouh not as many as in medieval Europe, and also again in the Fourth Age when all the lands were reunited which sadly ends all Middle-Earth, because not much was recorded afterward.

Although Knights are represented differently in Real life and Tolkien, there is very much a stench of familiarity in both, to me anyways.

[MrBlack103]

Well, I can see both sides here, so I'm gonna stay neutral on this one. Yes, the races can be compared to LotR, I myself have always thought that crownies all look similar to soldiers of Gondor, and it is obvious that LEGO is paying tribute to Tolkien, in their own, LEGO-ie way. However, there are vast differences which have, of course, been covered. So, my conclusion is, that LEGO is simply trying to make money off of the successes of Peter Jackson's films without having to buy a license for the rights.

[CornLegoCorn]

Also for people who don't know, "The Hobbit" movie is coming out in 09' and again in 010' since they're actually deciding to split it into two parts, they might actually get good characters like Beorn, and with Peter Jackson they cut out Tom Bombadil in Lotr,

But yes, a lot of points about why and why not this is true or not, I always did kindna see both sides

[Sir Kohran]

Good post Formendacil. Now it's time for the nit-picking

Knights, as such, do not really exist in any form in Middle-Earth, notwithstanding the term being applied to the "Knights of Dol Amroth".

Well the term 'knight' is used often in the Legendarium, both for Dol Amroth and Rohan, though it's not clear if Tolkien intended it to be a specific rank or just a description.

Most notably, Middle-earth never has, or would have undead.

Well the term 'undead' is used for the Witch-king:

For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.'

However, I'm sure Tolkien had something a bit more complex in mind than the simple 'animated bones' that the Lego Castle line has, which seems closer to that of Warcraft.

I could also make mention of the overall presentation of the evil (red & black) and good (sand blue) wizards being very unTolkienesque

The colours don't fit Tolkien, but the model does - the pointy hat, the staff, the long beard. And besides, blue vs red is a recurring motif in Lego Castle.

And, indeed, the upcoming release of a jester in the Advent Calendar demonstrates further that this is not particularly Tolkien at all: there are no "fools" in Middle-earth's courts.

Ahem!

'The Voice Of Saruman': 'Saruman, Saruman!' said Gandalf still laughing. 'Saruman, you missed your path in life. You should have been the king's jester and earned your bread, and stripes too, by mimicking his counsellors. Ah me!'


Overall I would say the line seems more Warcraft than LOTR, though Warcraft is somewhat derivative of Warcraft anyway.

- Matt

[DaleDVM]

I agree somewhat with all of the posts. Many good points out there. We here at classic castle tend to be more AFOLs than not. I think many of us see the new line and think Tolkein and D&D. Show the new line to kids and they think World of Warcraft. Consider the timing of the release and it coincides with the popularity of WoW much more than the LOTR movies. The Return of the King was released almost five years ago now.

In fact all of the fantasy material is interrelated, as others have mentioned thanks to Tolkein. (who got his inspiraton from mythology and history) I imagine the inspiration at TLC is coming from many sources. Are they copying one source or another for profit and not paying for a license? I say no. They are using multiple sources for inspiration on a fantasy world that has no original copyright holder. I for one am just grateful they came out with such a fun line. I hope it continues to sell like hotcakes! Congrats TLG!

[Reiniger]

Very briefly - as has been generally stated before, I think the similarities between this line and LotR is due more to the fact that Tolkien generally established the archetypes for elves, dwarfs, and modern fantasy in general than any conscious decision by Lego to copy LotR specifically. All fantasy, whether WoW, D&D, or Lego, is going to owe a debt to him.

[CornLegoCorn]

Not sure who was the person who said there is no undead in Lotr, you can look in two places, The Barrow-Downs, or The Paths of the Dead (I cant remeber actual name), and the Dragons, while in the Trolls warship one is mounted by a knight (which would never happen in Lotr), it is clear that dragons were evil, Morgoth created them most notably Glaurung, and the Balrogs, and the Orcs, and all that. But no matter how much we argue, it will always come to this:

J.R.R. Tolkien is the Father of Modern Fantasy, his son Christopher has put together his uncompleted works to make books his father was going to write, and has since carried on the Tolkien Legacy. (although I'm not entirely sure if Christopher has a child to carry on even further)

And i'm sure, you can relate almost everything to Lotr in one way or another, and hey, C.S. Lewis who wrote the Chronicles of Narnia was a good friedn of and took inspiration from Tolkien.

[Robin Hood]

First off, you boys are in waaaayyyyyy over your heads. Trust me, you don't not want to cross Middle-Earth swords with Formendacil. Regardless of who wins, if he chooses, there will be blood. May Ilúvatar rest your souls.

That being said, lets get back on track with what this thread is talking about. Personally, I can't believe Lego in anyway made Castle 07/08 to be a version, parody, copy, or homage of Tolkien's works. To be sure, similarities can be drawn between the two, but that's just coincidence. Really, any sort of castle thing, whether book, movie, game, or toy line, can be considered similar to Tolkien. And that’s just the way of it, and not because Tolkien was the first, per-say. Its just that there are some clichés that happen, and will happen again. Tolkien didn't invent them and even if he did, others would have too, and without any influence from Tolkien. Things such as dwarves being miners and having axes, and Orcs and trolls being bad guys, and skeletons becoming undead are just clichés that have been used over and over again that no one can say that anyone person invented it. Tolkien was a great pioneer in this field, but by no means is everything a result of him. Some things just, by coincidence, are similar.

Dan

[Luís]

I'm not the level of Tolkien fan many here are, as I only read the books that were published by him or his son, and not any guide or thing of the sort. That being said, I still love Tolkien's work and his books are between two medieval LEGO book supporters of mine. So, with my limited knowledge I can say I disagree that LEGO has inpired/copied/whatever Tolkien. As said clichés exist for a long time, and many Middle-Eaeth creatures are inspired by others, sometimes even more childish creatures Tolkien gave a new face to. Plus, there is reference to undead but not the skellie undead, and oone can see the expression being used as someone who gave up or was tricked out of an actual life as a human (in this case the Witch-King and Nazgul).

you boys are in waaaayyyyyy over your heads. Trust me, you don't not want to cross Middle-Earth swords with Formendacil. Regardless of who wins, if he chooses, there will be blood. May Ilúvatar rest your souls.

Always good to see one stand up for his brother.

[CornLegoCorn]

Summary hehe: Basically, The Lego 08' Factions are similar to races in Tolkien, whilst they are not direct copies.

Its funny after all this debate that the summary above, is it...

But No matter what fantasy book you read, or game you play, or TV show you watch or Lego fantasy creation you build you can intertwine with anything of the same genre, because no matter what, its all really the same...

pssst Tolkien IS the best...
...from my point of view...

[Robin Hood]

Summary hehe: Basically, The Lego 08' Factions are similar to races in Tolkien, whilst they are not direct copies.

Its funny after all this debate that the summary above, is it...

But No matter what fantasy book you read, or game you play, or TV show you watch or Lego fantasy creation you build you can intertwine with anything of the same genre, because no matter what, its all really the same...

pssst Tolkien IS the best...
...from my point of view...

Precisely. That is what I was trying to say, in not so few words.

Oh, and of course Tolkien is the best, that was never in doubt. (Cracks knuckles) Right guys?

Dan

[Tower of Iron Will]

Personally I don't care whether the line was intended to resemble LOTR or not. It would be smart for LEGO corp to try to "cash" in on the success of the movies without officially doing so. Yet when I first saw the Crown Knights I didn't immediately think, "oooh, LOTR knights."

Yes the LEGO "Blue" wizard resembles Gandalf but like others said that's because the Gandalf "style" of wizard has been established by Tokien and reinforced by D&D games and the like for many years now.

I thought of the Dead Men of Dunharrow as undead, but if you want to call them evil spirits or whatever, it's a case of semantics. As far as the nine Nazgul, for me there was no question, they were undead. But that's how I view them. To use a more D&D explanation, the nine exist in both the negative material plane and the prime. When the ring is used, the wearer "switches" to the negative material plane(or something simliar) and "sees them differently". Didn't Sauron have a vampire messenger called "Thuringwethil?" LEGO hasn't made anything close to either the Dead Men or the Nazgul but that's cool, I made my own version.

I do agree that LEGO skeleton's are unlikely to have been inspired by LOTR.

LEGO just needs to keep up the momentum set by the '07 and '08 sets.
-Tower

[Robin Hood]

As far as the nine Nazgul, for me there was no question, they were undead.

To be perfectly correct, the Nazgul can't have been undead, seeing as they never died. Their souls were bound to Sauron when they put on their rings and Sauron's power held them to it. So they never died, just got so old their bodies faded away. Only when the One Ring was destroyed did they die. Of course, this all depends on your defenition of "undead". I suppose if you use that term literally, the Nazgul fit the bill.

Dan

[CornLegoCorn]

Didn't Sauron have a vampire messenger called "Thuringwethil?"

I have bever heard if a vampire messenger called Thuringwethil, but he has a messenger called the Mouth if Sauron, who I do not think is a vampire or anything, just a screwed up man who wears a freaky head piece.

[Heir of Black Falcon]

It is in Silmarillion. There are plenty of mentions of vampires and werewoves in it.

I think somewhere in RotK it states the mouth of sauron was a corrupted Numenorean.

R