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Most Juniorized Castle?

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Most Juniorized Castle?

Postby davee123 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:05 am

So, DaleDVM's earlier post got me wondering... what's the most juniorized castle of them all? And for that matter, what's the least juniorized? And how in the world would you rate such a thing?

Well, here's what I did to figure it out. I wrote a program. Because I'm that kind of guy. I took the inventories for all the "major" castle sets (everything with 300+ pieces in the Peeron database), and then rated pieces individually on roughly how juniorized they were on a scale of 0-1. Most non-juniorized things got 0's, and most juniorized things got 1's. And some things that were iffy got ratings in between. Horses, for example? They got a 0.125. The 1x2 brick with a clip on the side? That got a 0.75. And so forth.

I probably didn't get everything. There were some medium-sized bionicle-style thingies that I probably missed, which are pretty juniorized in my book, and there are probably some things where I'd flip back and forth on whether they're juniorized or not. It's a tough call.

Anyway, the results! Each set was given a "percentage juniorized" rating. So a 0% means no juniorization, and a 100% means it'd be comprised of ONLY juniorized parts. And the total number of parts is derived from the number in the BrickLink inventory, NOT necessarily the number of pieces on the box.

Code: Select all
375-2        0 / 775    0.000%  Classic Yellow Castle
6075-2       0 / 775    0.000%  Classic Yellow Castle
10193-1     27 / 1627   1.659%  Medieval Market Village
7041-1   11.75 / 511    2.299%  Troll Battle Wheel
6081-1  15.375 / 438    3.510%  King's Mountain Fortress
7048-1      17 / 473    3.594%  Troll Warship
6096-1  11.625 / 320    3.633%  Bull's Attack
7079-1  12.625 / 344    3.670%  Drawbridge Defense
7036-1      22 / 591    3.723%  Dwarves' Mine
6089-1   16.75 / 409    4.095%  Stone Tower Bridge
6073-1   17.25 / 420    4.107%  Knight's Castle
3053-1  13.625 / 331    4.116%  Emperor's Stronghold
7029-1   26.75 / 634    4.219%  Skeleton Ship Attack
6080-1    30.5 / 686    4.446%  King's Castle
6097-1    28.5 / 603    4.726%  Night Lord's Castle
6090-1  37.125 / 767    4.840%  Royal Knight's Castle
6085-1   33.75 / 688    4.906%  Black Monarch's Castle
6074-1   22.25 / 434    5.127%  Black Falcon's Fortress
7037-1      20 / 378    5.291%  Tower Raid
6082-1  23.125 / 397    5.825%  Fire Breathing Fortress
7093-1  23.875 / 409    5.837%  Skeleton Tower
6079-1  27.875 / 470    5.931%  Dark Forest Fortress
6086-1   35.75 / 596    5.998%  Black Knight's Castle
7097-1  53.375 / 857    6.228%  Trolls' Mountain Fortress
7094-1   64.25 / 983    6.536%  King's Castle Siege
10176-1  64.75 / 875    7.400%  King's Castle (2006)
8813-1   32.75 / 387    8.463%  Battle at the Pass
8823-1  38.125 / 437    8.724%  Mistlands Tower
6093-1  61.125 / 694    8.808%  Flying Ninja's Fortress
8779-1    28.5 / 316    9.019%  The Grand Tournament
8781-1   60.75 / 645    9.419%  The Castle of Morcia
8877-1  98.625 / 993    9.932%  Vladek's Dark Fortress
8780-1   46.25 / 450   10.278%  Citadel of Orlean
6098-1  56.125 / 540   10.394%  King Leo's Castle
6091-1   56.25 / 537   10.475%  King Leo's Castle
9376-1  39.125 / 330   11.856%  Dacta Castle Set


There are certainly some surprises for me on the list, though-- I never thought 6081 was so un-juniorized, although perhaps that's because I typically think of raised baseplates as being horribly juniorized-- and in my program, it only counted it as 1 juniorized piece. No more offensive than using a 1x1x5 brick or something. So the numbers are probably more flexible than they ought to be. But in general, I think it turned out to be more-or-less what I expected.

Thoughts?

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Re: Most Juniorized Castle?

Postby architect » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:37 pm

Thank you for the interesting statistics Dave. Many of the juniorized sets are large but do not have large piece counts.

I also consider difficulty of construction, or lack thereof, to be a factor in juniorization. Sets such as 6091 King Leo's Castle ( http://www.classic-castle.com/sets/archives/6091.html ) seem terribly juniorized even though they may have many small detail elements (flags, turrets, torches, etc) reducing their overall small element to juniorized element ratio.

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Re: Most Juniorized Castle?

Postby DaleDVM » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:48 pm

Good point Ben. Construction techniques are a big part of what makes a set feel juniorized to me. That "feel" is really hard to quantify when discussing these matters.

I am glad you brought this to a new thread Davee. I didn't want to debate POOPs or juniorized pieces in the official photos thread as that is not the place for it.

First of all what is a POOP. It is a Part (that can be made) Out of Other Parts. Unfortuantely for this discussion every unmodified LEGO brick is a POOP. If we want to take it to the extreme a 1x1 brick is three 1x1 plates. Strangely enough wall panels cannot be copied exactly with bricks and even though we all think of them as POOPs they actually are not. I would guess they could be considered POOPlike?. :twitch: Being a POOP is atleast somewhat objective as a piece can either be made of other parts or not.

Juniorized parts on the other hand is very subjective. How people would judge juniorization is likely up to the individual and we could debate it forever. Which I admit could be fun since I love to get other people's perspectives on LEGO! :D So lets do it.

Davee I do not want to assume, but from what I can tell you consider a lot of current lego pieces to be juniorized. I respect your opinion on this matter. I too think many pieces are juniorized and we would likely agree on a lot... like wall panels and the one piece battlements. However for now, I would like to just discuss the ones you mentioned from the previous thread (from KCS) to give you a slightly different perspective on those pieces since my opinion does differ somewhat.

davee123 wrote:I dunno, there-- KCS had a bunch of other juniorized stuff too, like:

ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

And some other things that are .... ~quasi~ juniorized, like the dragon, portcullis, and some other stuff upon which we'd have to debate (like horses!). Anyway, by a quick count, I got 55 juniorized parts in the KCS-- about one POOP per 17.7 pieces. But what counts as a juniorized element is obviously up for debate.
DaveE


ImageImage
Most would consider these POOPs. I do not consider this to be the same as a 1x2 or 2x2 technique brick with a pin in it. It looks very much the same and frequently I can use either. However, even tightly fitting pins still spin in the hole. The pins on these two pieces do not and occasionally I don't want it to spin. This is especially the case when I insert a bar into the pin and don't want that spinning either. This can be important when I use the bars to support other bricks. I can't have the bricks that I connnect to this spinning or the construct becomes less stable. I'm sure some others have used these non spinning pins with other techniques that I have not even thought of yet. I know this doesn't seem like a big deal but I have specifically pulled these pieces to use in the past just for this purpose. Therefore it is really hard for me to consider these juniorized.

ImageImageImage
These three pieces are certainly POOPs. If used in a place where bricks can replace them (i.e studs on top) they may also be juniorized. Although I must admit when used as exposed columns I do sometimes find them more aesthetically pleasing as they look like a solid column of stone as opposed to a stack of bricks or stones. When using snot techniques I find these pieces no more juniorized than standard bricks of the longer variety. When building in snot (i.e. turning these pieces on their side) these act much like 1x6 or 2x6 bricks in that they can span an open area keeping your model stable and support snot bricks above them. When used this way they can't really be replaced by regular bricks and therefore I find them incredibly useful.

ImageImage

The first piece is juniorized IMO and I did include it in my piece count of juniorized bricks in KCS. It is not really a POOP as I haven't really seen a good technique that readily replicates the slots for the Poricullis piece. I find that this piece is not necessary unless someone can point out a different use for it. The porticullis is another juniorized piece but some have found very specific uses for it since it has certain aesthetic properties that are hard to duplicate. Needless to say a porticullis could be brick built lik ethey were in the past. I think the current piece and the new one(coming out this year)are an effort by TLG for cost controls and stability with a piece that gets moved around a lot. The second pictured piece is not a POOP either and really becomes necessary because of the porticullis. It is not possible as far as I know to replicate the thin slot in such a narrow (2 studs wide design). In fact that thin slot can't be replicated without using snot techniques which could be too complex for a child. It is still likely to be considered juniorized but as long as they make a one piece porticullis I almost find this piece to be necessary. Thus I did not include it in my KCS count.

Image
This piece I don't consider juniorized at all. In fact this is not even a POOP as you cannot center a clip like this in a 2 stud construct using plates and still have a solid piece like this. Often I like the fact that the clip is centered between the studs and use this piece instead of the clip on the 1x1 plate. I find this piece very useful.

In conclusion:
I think the way the parts you mentioned are used in KCS may be juniorized or not thus changing the "feel" of the set. I hope I have shown that many of the parts themselves are very useful in non juniorized ways. Therefore those parts don't give me that same feel they may give you. I think that most AFOLs would agree the overall juniorized "feel" of a set is greatly changed by the larger parts (ie. wall panels, battlement pieces, the large gate top) The smaller POOPs you mentioned may also contribute, but I would guess to a much lesser extent. As Ben mentioned the contruction techniques or build contribute quite a bit to the "feel" as well. As I mentioned in the other thread, time also has an effect on "feel". Sets that I built years ago felt more complex to me then because I wasn't making complex MOCs back then. That is why I try to rebuild sets by the instructions occasionally to keep a fresh perspective on castle sets. Finally the finished design, textures, and colors likely influence that feel as well.

Even though the juniorized feel is different to each of us we all likely agree on many points. I find this discussion fascinating and would like to hear others views on their LEGO experience of that "feel" with their castle sets.
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Re: Most Juniorized Castle?

Postby Bruce N H » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:11 pm

Hey,

Isn't this one a POOP:
Image
as there are these 1x2 bricks with groove:
Image
Or is the groove a different size?

Down with POOPs! All MOCs should be made exclusively of 1x1 plates!
Image

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Re: Most Juniorized Castle?

Postby davee123 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:28 pm

Ultimately, there are a lot of ways to look at it-- none of them are correct. But, for the sake of comparing Black Falcon's Fortress to King's Castle Siege, I wanted to distinguish the fact that Black Falcon's Fortress (and many sets of the day) really WERE less juniorized.

Sure, you might not think of the 1x2 with technic pin Image as a "juniorized" element, but let's face it-- back in 1986 there was no such piece, and they did it the bare-bones way of a technic brick and a peg. Similarly, they didn't have the 1x2 with clip brick Image, so if they needed to stick a clip on something, they would use the 1x1 plate w/ clip and some surrounding plates to fill in the gap. Effectively, you might say that these new bricks aren't juniorized, but I can't in good conscience say that the old-school way of doing it is EQUAL to the new way. However non-juniorized the new way may be, the old way is LESS juniorized, and (I believe) ought to be reflected if you're actually trying to compare the two.

As for what I consider "juniorized" and "not juniorized", I didn't really look at it from a POOP perspective. After all, there are very few (if any?) genuine POOPs. Even things like 1x1x5 bricks can't be truly replaced by a stack of 5 1x1 bricks, since you couldn't stick (say) an antenna up the bottom of it-- and you wouldn't have the hollow stud on the top, either. But I looked at it from the perspective of "how much ease-of-building or coolness-for-the-sake-of-coolness does this add?" Things like the Bionicle spike element on the front of 7038 Troll Assault Wagon-- I consider it juniorized because it's adding lots of flare in only a single element that's otherwise very limited in use. It's a quick way to make the set look more substantial and detailed, without adding the more detailed sub-elements that might otherwise have been needed to achieve the same effect.

But ultimately, I hope nobody's offended by me considering certain pieces to be juniorized. I'm certainly not old-school enough to go telling all you young whippersnappers that horses should still be brick-built, and that it's somehow impure use a juniorized element. Far from it! A lot of juniorized elements have fantastic functionality that simply can't be achieved with "normal" bricks. The 1x2 with technic pin is a great example, actually. I don't really care that the pin is rigid and can't spin-- but more importantly in my book, the reverse side of the brick is flat! So you can build it into an exterior wall, and it looks MUCH better than if you used a technic brick, which would leave a little circle in an otherwise flat wall.

Anyway, hopefully that explains a bit more where my numbers in particular are coming from. Ben raises some interesting ideas in terms of detail pieces, too. I wonder if I can adjust my scheme to somehow count "normal" bricks, plates, and slopes, and give extra "non-juniorized" credit to sets that use a higher quantity of them, meaning there's less focus on detail bits like flags and spikes and such. Another possibility might be to count "extra" juniorized bricks (like raised baseplates and POOPs) as *MORE* than 1. So a 1x1x5 brick might count as a 5 rather than just a 1, and a raised baseplate might count as 100 or something. Hmm... I might play with that some more.

Anyway, I definitely find the topic interesting to discuss!

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Re: Most Juniorized Castle?

Postby Blueandwhite » Sun May 02, 2010 2:27 pm

Dave, I don't think anybody is offended by your efforts but juniorization isn't something that can be quantified so easily. While I commend you for your efforts, this topic is very subjective. The 1x2 brick with clip is a perfect example of a brick that some might consider juniorized while others might regard it as being very utilitarian. There is no combination of bricks which can adequately replicate this piece so it does have its uses. When all is said and done, your system depends entirely on what bricks you quantify as being juniorized. Moreover, it treats all elements equally. Having a giant raised baseplate is considered less offensive than having a small assortment of odd bits like the aforementioned 1x2 brick with clip or a couple of 1x2 bricks. Even if you were to adjust your scale, there is no real way to come to a serious consensus as to what makes item A 5x as juniorized as item B or 3x as juniorized as item C.

Age isn't really a factor either. The cheese slope is a relatively modern brick in the LEGO family, but it is also one of the most basic and versatile elements ever produced. Conversely, many of the boat hulls from the early 80s can hardly be called basic bricks. While juniorization seemed to be at its worst in the mid to late 90s to the early 2000s, these sorts of bricks have been around for far longer. Personally I feel that juniorization is something that is measured from the gut; it is that feeling that a set lacks a wide assortment of versatile and functional bricks. It can't be measured simply on a piece-by-piece basis and it can't be quantified so simply. By your scale the Troll Battleship is one of the least juniorized castle sets out there, yet my gut tells me something completely different. Between the giant prefab dragon and the prefab hull pieces, I have a hard time seeing this set as being less juniorized than something like 6085 or 6074. Then again, this is all subjective. For me the Troll Battleship 'feels' like it belongs somewhere in the middle. Using a hard scale to quantify things just doesn't work IMO.
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Re: Most Juniorized Castle?

Postby davee123 » Sun May 02, 2010 5:15 pm

Blueandwhite wrote:Dave, I don't think anybody is offended by your efforts but juniorization isn't something that can be quantified so easily.


TOTALLY agree. As stated initially, this was sort of an experiment spurred by DaleDVM's post which attempted to gauge the KCS's level of juniorization with the BFF, based on the number of large panels or otherwise juniorized elements. I'm by no means intending to defend that as a good indicator, but I do nevertheless think it's interesting to see what that sort of results that indicator reports. And furthermore, COULD it be a good indicator if we set it up differently?

The 1x2 brick with clip is a perfect example of a brick that some might consider juniorized while others might regard it as being very utilitarian. There is no combination of bricks which can adequately replicate this piece so it does have its uses.


Yeah, I think that's probably one of the better examples of a borderline case, honestly. When I think about the fact that clips always used to be on plates, and then started making their way onto bricks, I have to admit I think of the element as juniorized. That is, when you're comparing the "old way" versus the "new way", it seems juniorized to me. Not a whole lot, but a bit. But when I think about it from a "how can I achieve X?" perspective, the part is versatile enough that it's not all that juniorized. After all, part of what makes something juniorized (in my mind) is how specialized it is. And that element isn't very specialized at all.

Moreover, it treats all elements equally. Having a giant raised baseplate is considered less offensive than having a small assortment of odd bits like the aforementioned 1x2 brick with clip or a couple of 1x2 bricks.


Yep! Actually, I played around with that a little, and it was pretty interesting, actually! When adjusting the scale in this manner, pretty much anything with a raised baseplate shot its way down the list, and virtually EVERYTHING increased its overall score of around 40%!

Even if you were to adjust your scale, there is no real way to come to a serious consensus as to what makes item A 5x as juniorized as item B or 3x as juniorized as item C.


I guess I dunno-- that's sort of the point of this thread, IMHO. Can we, as a group, determine ~reasonable~ indicators that we can look at with general consensus? Can we tweak the numbers so that we mostly agree? Or is it so amazingly varied that it defies all analysis completely?

Personally I feel that juniorization is something that is measured from the gut; it is that feeling that a set lacks a wide assortment of versatile and functional bricks.


Now, that's the other factor that I want to try taking in, but haven't worked out how to exactly. What if there were "anti-juniorized" elements? That is to say, for each 1x2 brick (for example), it brings the juniorization score back down? That way, a set with lots of versatile elements would score better?

By your scale


I really hate to think of it as "my" scale. DaleDVM really provided the inspiration for it, and I ramped it up to be more comprehensive. And I'd encourage others to help offer suggestions to see if it's worth even bothering to keep checking it out, or whether it should be just totally trashed all together. I think of it as a fun community experiment. If people are interested enough, I can possibly even make a quickie web application to let people test their own numbers.

the Troll Battleship is one of the least juniorized castle sets out there, yet my gut tells me something completely different. Between the giant prefab dragon and the prefab hull pieces, I have a hard time seeing this set as being less juniorized than something like 6085 or 6074. Then again, this is all subjective. For me the Troll Battleship 'feels' like it belongs somewhere in the middle. Using a hard scale to quantify things just doesn't work IMO.


Actually, using the tweak I mentioned above, the Troll Warship actually DOES come out ranked as being more juniorized. Let me see if I can do a little more playing around, and I'll post some new stats to see how those look...

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Re: Most Juniorized Castle?

Postby davee123 » Sun May 02, 2010 9:05 pm

Ok, so, take 2! Now, I've tried to score things a little differently.

1) Now, juniorized pieces count for ~roughly~ the number of normal pieces it might take to otherwise build that element. So a 1x1x5 brick counts as 5 juniorized pieces. And a 1x2 brick with attached pin counts as 2 juniorized pieces, rather than just 1. This means things like raised baseplates are a fatal blow to many sets.

2) Regular bricks, plates, and slopes subtract -1 from the juniorized score. So if a set had a tally of 19 juniorized elements, but it had 12 1x2 bricks in it, then its juniorized tally drops to 7, rather than 19. So the more basic elements a set has, the better it does, and can counter-balance its level of juniorization rating.

3) The list of sets has changed a bit-- now that each juniorized element can count as multiple elements, the "total pieces" in each set has sometimes been increased, meaning that some sets with less than 300 pieces are counted as having MORE than 300 pieces, and are actually showing up on the list now.

Code: Select all
Set          Jun / Total  % Jun   Set Name
=============================================================
6075-2      -600 / 775   -77.419  Castle
375-2       -600 / 775   -77.419  Castle
10193-1 -701.125 / 1714  -40.906  Medieval Market Village
6067-1   -73.875 / 332   -22.252  Guarded Inn
7041-1       -87 / 537   -16.201  Battle Wheel
7036-1   -109.75 / 704   -15.589  Dwarves' Mine
6062-1     -46.5 / 316   -14.715  Battering Ram
6073-1    -82.75 / 607   -13.633  Knight's Castle
6085-1   -111.25 / 953   -11.674  Black Monarch's Castle
7037-1       -49 / 453   -10.817  Tower Raid
6074-1    -64.75 / 640   -10.117  Black Falcon's Fortress
6080-1     -86.5 / 1016   -8.514  King's Castle
6096-1   -22.625 / 379    -5.970  Bull's Attack
6089-1   -27.125 / 508    -5.340  Stone Tower Bridge
7079-1   -23.875 / 456    -5.236  Drawbridge Defense
6077-2   -11.375 / 511    -2.226  Forestmen's River Fortress
6097-1   -13.625 / 841    -1.620  Night Lord's Castle
7029-1       -13 / 850    -1.529  Skeleton Ship Attack
3053-1    -0.875 / 440    -0.199  Emperor's Stronghold
K8800-1    2.125 / 541     0.393  Vladek's Siege Engine
7097-1     7.375 / 1203    0.613  Trolls' Mountain Fortress
7093-1    22.125 / 560     3.951  Skeleton Tower
6075-1    19.875 / 364     5.460  Wolfpack Tower
7094-1    82.125 / 1474    5.572  King's Castle Siege
8822-1     25.25 / 351     7.194  Gargoyle Bridge
6081-1    61.375 / 693     8.856  King's Mountain Fortress
6093-1    92.125 / 1032    8.927  Flying Ninja's Fortress
7048-1    60.125 / 642     9.365  Troll Warship
65642-1       52 / 449    11.581  Limited Edition Bonus Pack
8779-1        52 / 447    11.633  The Grand Tournament
6090-1   160.875 / 1230   13.079  Royal Knight's Castle
6048-1     42.25 / 317    13.328  Majisto's Magical Workshop
6046-1      44.5 / 319    13.950  Hemlock Stronghold
8780-1     99.25 / 673    14.747  Citadel of Orlan
6079-1   113.375 / 744    15.239  Dark Forest Fortress
8823-1   110.875 / 677    16.377  Mistlands Tower
6088-1    72.375 / 418    17.315  Robber's Retreat
6086-1   185.625 / 1049   17.695  Black Knight's Castle
6078-1    77.125 / 409    18.857  Royal Drawbridge
8799-1        59 / 311    18.971  Knights' Castle Wall
6082-1       138 / 725    19.034  Fire Breathing Fortress
10176-1  332.125 / 1531   21.693  King's Castle
65767-1   122.25 / 532    22.979  Attack from the Sea
8877-1     406.5 / 1678   24.225  Vladek's Dark Fortress
8781-1   285.625 / 1160   24.623  The Castle of Morcia
6076-1    96.625 / 386    25.032  Dark Dragon's Den
6087-1   113.375 / 449    25.251  Witch's Magic Manor
1906-1     108.5 / 374    29.011  Majisto's Tower
8813-1     188.5 / 621    30.354  Battle at the Pass
6098-1   360.375 / 1045   34.486  King Leo's Castle
6091-1   361.375 / 1042   34.681  King Leo's Castle
8876-1    181.75 / 501    36.277  Scorpion Prison Cave
8802-1       131 / 311    42.122  Dark Fortress Landing
9376-1   301.125 / 686    43.896  LEGO DACTA Castle Set


From my perspective, it's looking not too bad, actually. I think raised baseplates are a bit too harshly judged, but in general it seems to be reasonably reflective of juniorization (at least in my book).

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Re: Most Juniorized Castle?

Postby DaleDVM » Mon May 03, 2010 1:55 am

Bruce N H wrote:Hey,

Isn't this one a POOP:
Image
as there are these 1x2 bricks with groove:
Image
Or is the groove a different size?


I stand corrected. I completely forgot about that piece. and I thought I knew my LEGO. :oops: In fact now that I checked it on bricklink. I only have a few from the Royal Kings Castle and the Night Lords Castle. I have never taken those sets apart and sorted those pieces out.

I have enjoyed the stats Davee. Is this a worthy project? Even if only you got satisfaction from running the numbers, it would still be worthy. LEGO and Classic Castle... I believe they are for enhancing and making our hobby more enjoyable.

I think it would be very hard to come up with a consensus for values on pieces. Like has been mentioned this is such a subjective topic and there are so many pieces it would be quite the project just gathering the opinions.

Also I did not mean to say that I think BFF is juniorized because I don't really think it is. I only meant to show another side to the arguement that recent LEGO castles don't stand up to the old ones. That is all. I still think some of us do have a notalgic feeling about the LEGO of our youth and it makes being objective more difficult. No offense meant... hopefully none taken.
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