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Battle Dragon 6018 again.

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Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Jojo » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:04 pm

Hello!


Since the Black Knights manoeuvring this boat carry a Black Falcon shield rumours went that Black Knights and Black Falcons were in fact one and the same faction. Well, I doubt that.

But here's something to think about:

Image
(pic/link)

;-)


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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby rogue27 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:07 pm

This might suggest that the person who was in charge of design continuity for the castle theme was no longer working for LEGO at that time. Would explain a lot that happened in the 90s.
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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Aliencat » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:55 pm

That's an unexpected twist.
Even for the sake of having a quartet of Crusaders sets (for the quartet game), you'd think there's more than enough to choose from. Thanks for pointing this out Jojo, it gave me a good laugh :)
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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Kev » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:44 am

The rower is obviously a slave captured in battle. Galleys were almost always rowed by slaves.
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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Heir of Black Falcon » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:06 am

Not sure how we know the two figs in this set belong to any faction, except perhaps the guy with the BF shield. They all seem to use the same breastplate torsos at this time regardless of the faction.

I never got the feeling any of the kingdoms in the 80s were actually on one side all the time. More like a medieval free-for-all.

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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Frank_Lloyd_Knight » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:57 am

Heir of Black Falcon wrote:I never got the feeling any of the kingdoms in the 80s were actually on one side all the time. More like a medieval free-for-all.


I totally agree with this interpretation. I think the concept of strict factions came along sometime later.
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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Vrio » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:03 pm

In my opinion battle dragon is 100% Black Knights / Black Monarchs boat. If you see the soldiers in it, they are almost the same colors like the soldiers in 6085. Also the dragon head on boat is a black knight symbol (amost same as in Black Knights Boat 1547). Whats more the boat even matches in colors with Black Knight's Boat 1547 and Sea Serpent 6057 (black-blue-red). Propably the Falcon shield was a loot from a battle!Also no black falcon figs carry the scale mail torsos.
Also i believe that Black Knights were, at least for a small amount of time, neutral with crusaders. In Knight's Challenge 6060 you see them having fun and enjoing a small tournament. Whats more in this picture you can see an emblem featuring both black knight and crusaders emblems:
http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr26 ... nights.jpg
Also in the same pic has black monrachs ghost 6034 and battle dragon 6010 seperated from black monarchs, so what? Propably it was just a mistake.
I will always believe that Battle Dragon was and is a black knights boat!
http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr26 ... on6010.jpg
Black Knights for the win!!! :twisted:
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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Jojo » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:05 pm

Hello!


Heir of Black Falcon wrote:Not sure how we know the two figs in this set belong to any faction, except perhaps the guy with the BF shield. They all seem to use the same breastplate torsos at this time regardless of the faction.

Nope. Mounted knights were wearing all the same breastplates. Footsoldiers were usually clearly distinctable.
Speaking of the year 1990, when the Battle Dragon (heck, "Dragon" *hint*) was released, we get the following soldiers (pics=links):

Image Image 6018

Image 6042

Image Image 6059

Image 6059

Image Image 6081

The figs from 6018 are very similar to the figs from 6085 Black Monarch's Castle one, two. So there is no doubt these guys are Black Dragon soldiers.

The lion crest on the 6042-fig speaks for itself.

The red guys from 6059 are not sooo similar to the 6085-figs, however, their overall complexion is clearly not blackfalconly, plus they are manning a wall bearing Dragon shields. (Okay, that seems like a weak argument, considering the 6018-dilemma.) The concept of chainmail torso colour and leg colour being the same was later on used in 1491 as well, also clearly Black Dragon soldiers.

The blue guy from 6059 makes me wonder: What were they thinking? Anyway, there were other soldiers wearing this breastplate, look up 6016, 6017, 6041, 6049 ("Crusaders"), so maybe they just wanted to transfer this concept to Black Falcons as well, in order to create more variety.

Granted, chainmail on Crusaders never became common. However, the two kinds of footsoldiers in 6081 both show very similar colour-combos, so it's easy to accept those chainmail-guys as Crusader soldiers.,

To sum it up: Lego wanted to create variety. So they used all the torsos, legs and helmets they had at a time and mixed them up in a reasonable way. (Except for the blue 6059-guy, alas!) In my as always very humble opionion they still managed to create distinctively recognisable figs belonging to the several factions, with some vague exceptions. Well, everybody has a bad day once in a while.


I never got the feeling any of the kingdoms in the 80s were actually on one side all the time. More like a medieval free-for-all.

In the meaning of "allies in wars" I totally agree. In the meaning of "member of the same tribe" I disagree. Black Falcons are Black Falcons, "Crusaders" are "Crusaders", Black Dragons are Black Dragons, and so on.


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Last edited by Jojo on Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Vrio » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:20 pm

+1 for jojo, he pointed many of the thinks i also said in the previews post! I also had a problem with full red knights (6059) and full blue knights (6060)...Why they made them look so red/blue :P
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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Heir of Black Falcon » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:22 pm

Vrio,

Looted shields? Huh. A medieval faction would never use an enemy shield over a long period of time unless part of some plan of attack. Shields were a means of identification. Using another's shield was a big no no. Big, BIG no no. They might keep enemy shields like they kept banners and spurs but then it would be hung in a church or palace as a 'we beat you down' sort of thing.

I do not buy the idea that scale colors have to link to a faction. What would that have left black falcon with for colors since they are basically the same as Black Knight. At the time Lego was not using all the colors they use now or the silly pastels from KKII. It would have meant a gent that was all black and blue..... which was taken by Black Knights as well. The simple truth is there is cross over between the crusaders and black knights as well for colors of scale torsos... once again because there are only four main colors in use.

No, sorry guys this is a simple one. :eyebrows: No faction would use another factions ID. Just not how the system works. Now if you want to use it like some type of covert op is going on and the Black Knights, in their underhanded nature are disguised as falcons, that is one thing but then it means that the oarsman is a falcon which ruins your color codes again.
:roflol:

Jojo,

Using the name of the set Battle dragon to mean dragon faction... does it mean the black knights are then the sea serpent faction? or the Lion Knights vikings?


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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Jojo » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:11 pm

Hello!

Heir of Black Falcon wrote:I do not buy the idea that scale colors have to link to a faction. What would that have left black falcon with for colors since they are basically the same as Black Knight.
Of course you are entitled to see whatever you want to see. So am I. ;-) And I see clear signs of colour-coded factions. In combination with torso designs (coat of arms, chainmail, ...).
Difference between Black Falcons and Black Knights (sorry, I tend to call them "Black Dragons", because in Germany they were called "schwarze Drachenritter" = "black dragon knights") is: the BF soldiers always have a blue torso with black arms, and up to 1990 they also always have black legs, (except for the 6059-guy), sometimes with red hips. BK on the other hand reflect their more fancyful coat of arms by changing between red and blue. To be honest I can't understand how one could not see the obvious resemblance between the 6018-guys and the 6085-guys.

The simple truth is there is cross over between the crusaders and black knights as well for colors of scale torsos... once again because there are only four main colors in use.

While this is true, there are also differences in the gereneral style of the figures. Black Falcons, Black Knights and Lions all use red, blue, black, however, they differ in the amount and combination of each color.

No, sorry guys this is a simple one. No faction would use another factions ID. Just not how the system works.

Also true. But besides actual coats of arms also the sheer colours were important for identification. So if the colours of Black Falcons were black and blue, they wouldn't dress in red.

Using the name of the set Battle dragon to mean dragon faction... does it mean the black knights are then the sea serpent faction? or the Lion Knights vikings?

Touché. ;-) And no. But this ship itself is a dragon. It has a drogonhead. (Serpents are dragon-like, too.)

The truth is: We'll never know what they (Lego) were thinking when they added this BF shield in this Black Dragon set. Maybe they just tried some things out, laid a path that they didn't follow later on. Maybe they wanted to lean back and chuckle over the heated discussions some nerds expectedly were to have. ;-)


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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Frank_Lloyd_Knight » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:25 pm

I guess I fail to see what all the confusion is about. The ONLY heraldic device within the set is for the Black Falcons. And while one can pretend that it is a slave or a captured soldier rowing the boat, I don't see any indication that this was intended by the makers of the set. I for one don't imagine that a slave or captured soldier would still be wearing armor. If the argument that these knights are somehow affiliated with dragon knights or black knights or whatever they're called, lies in the fact that the boat has a dragon prow, then every set which has this element:
Image,
would aso have to be affiliated with the Lion Knights in some way. I don't think this is the case, I think they're both just architectural elements -- not meant to indicate the identity or affiliation of anyone.
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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Jojo » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:46 pm

Hello!


Frank_Lloyd_Knight wrote:then every set which has this element:
Image,
would aso have to be affiliated with the Lion Knights in some way. I don't think this is the case, I think they're both just architectural elements -- not meant to indicate the identity or affiliation of anyone.

While the BF shield is a strong argument for this set being a BF-set, fairly: the strongest; using this lionhead brick for an argument regarding the Lion Knights ("Crusaders") would be absurd, because this element wasn't in use before the year 2000.

But, boys! If you saw this figure outside the context of a set:
Image, would you say: "oh, cool a Black Falcon!"
Let alone this figure:
Image?


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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby Vrio » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:05 pm

Heir of Black Falcon wrote:Vrio,
No, sorry guys this is a simple one. :eyebrows: No faction would use another factions ID. Just not how the system works.


So here we get a lovely Black Knight because he carries a blue dragon shield:
http://guide.lugnet.com/set/?q=6078_1&v=z
Or he (obviously) is a Dragon Masters knight which are the main enemies of both Royal Knights AND Black Knights?
:P

Heir of Black Falcon wrote:I do not buy the idea that scale colors have to link to a faction. What would that have left black falcon with for colors since they are basically the same as Black Knight. At the time Lego was not using all the colors they use now or the silly pastels from KKII. It would have meant a gent that was all black and blue..... which was taken by Black Knights as well. The simple truth is there is cross over between the crusaders and black knights as well for colors of scale torsos... once again because there are only four main colors in use.


+2 for jojo
Here are all Black Falcon sets provided in Lugnet:
http://guide.lugnet.com/set/?q=6011%2C6 ... 74%2C10039
And we can also include the 2 black falcons knights in sea serpent set
http://guide.lugnet.com/set/?q=6057_1&v=z
and the 2 from 6059 Knights Stronghold:
http://guide.lugnet.com/set/?q=6059_1&v=z
None of them wears scale mail torso, even in these miscellaneous sets:
http://guide.lugnet.com/set/?q=10000_1&v=z
http://guide.lugnet.com/set/?q=6021_1&v=z <---although in this set i am sure they placed wrong the arms on torsos
Still no scale mail falcon figures.
And to have some fun:
Image
http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr26 ... Falcon.jpg
:lol: :roflol:
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Re: Battle Dragon 6018 again.

Postby ezehogan » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:56 pm

According to Brickipedia this set is a Black Falcon's set: http://lego.wikia.com/wiki/6018_Battle_Dragon

Personally, I have always considered this a Black Knight's set because of the dragon head on the stern as well as the design of the minifig torsos. However, I can see how the affiliation of this set is up for debate.

To my knowledge, at this time only the Black Knights and Crusaders had ships. Maybe this set was meant to be a Black Falcons boat? Maybe the boat is a Dragon Knight's boat and it has been hijacked by an undercover Black Falcons figure (the one with the crossbow)?

However, I always thought the Black Knights and Black Falcons had an alliance because of the Idea Book's placement of Black Falcon's inside of an alternate 6085 castle seen in this photo: http://www.yellowcastle.com/gallery/ide ... scene3.jpg

Then again, if we were to use the idea book as canon the Black Knights, Black Falcons, and Crusaders would all be allies against the Forestmen as seen in this photo: http://www.yellowcastle.com/gallery/ide ... scene1.jpg

There is also the presense of the grey legged Black Falcon soldiers in the 6057 Sea Serpent yet. The box art and depictions in catalogs lead me to believe the two factions were battling. Note that the box art shows the Black Falcon archer with his bow drawn rather than at ease to his side while "waving" as he likely would if they were allies.

I think the truth is that the designers at Lego simply put the shield in this set to spark the immagination of the child building it. He would have to rationalize why this seemingly Black Knight's set had a Black Falcon shield included. If that is the case, the designers did a good job as the discussions continue over 20 years after release.

As for the photo JoJo posted of the set being a Crusaders set.... I have no explanation.....
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