What is your favorite faction ?

Discussion of official LEGO Castle Theme sets and products

What is your favorite faction between Lion Crest, Black Falcon, Black Knights ?

Lion Crest
10
22%
Black Falcons
26
58%
Black Knights
9
20%
 
Total votes: 45

Magnus
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spears and shields

Post by Magnus »

The Wolfpack, I think you quite mistaken about the use of shields. Pikemen it is true, tended not to carry shields, as their weapons needed two hands to carry (although the Macedonian pikemen of Alexander and Philip, carried shields on their arms.

Spearmen however, would regard a shield as an essential piece of kit. it is much harder to parry with a spear than a sword or axe, and while a spear up to 2 and a half meters or so might be better wielded with two hands, a spearman was overall better off, considering protection, if he also carried a shield. In the early middle ages especially (the Vikings for instance), many lowborn troops would have no armour save a helmet, and a shield would be all the more important. By the late middle ages, plate armour was so strong than shields were often dispensed with altogether by mounted knights and heavy infantry alike (but by then a pike or a poleaxe was a more common infantry weapon than the spear).
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Jojo
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Post by Jojo »

Hello!


(Unfortunatelly this kind of forum doesn't have a real threading, so it's difficult to answer to a post that is not the very last one in the row. However, I'll try it nevertheless.)
David Girard wrote: My opinion is that Lions and Black Knights are Royal. As Magnus said, Falcons are Duke. That's what i Think.
That might be true.
Falcons (Eagles in Germany) and Lions don't fight all the time. In 6021 they also joust. And a Falcon knight is guest in the Lions' Guarded Inn.

And I agree that Falcons are subordinate to the Lions. (It's almost heresy ME saying THAT...) I think the Falcons are Saxonians who lived in small castles. The Lions have the bigger castles, more men and more powerful siege weapons. Furthermore the Lion is the crest of the King of England, Richard Lionheart, who was THE Crusader who probably gave the whole line this name. King Richard has almost never been in England but most time during his regency on crusade or in Austrian captivity. This is why the "King's Castle" 6080 doesn't have a king. The king is absent. He's on crusade.

And this is where the Black Knights (Dragons) come into play:
David Girard wrote: Black Knights and Lions are neighbor friend Kingdom. They didn't fight in any sets and on any catalog. They tournament together in 6060 Knight Challenge. :)
While Richard was absent the Norman barons tried to enhance their sway. In my opinion the Dragon is a Norman baron (possibly Richard's brother John) or the Sheriff of Nottingham. The black Castle always looked sinister to me, at least not friendly and good.
Those barons didn't candidly act against the Lions (Royals) but sneaked up to the thrown. This is why they never combat with Lions in any set. But they are attacked by (Saxonnian) Falcons (sets 6057, 6059) who are loyal to the Lions (Richard) rather than to the Norman barons (Prince John). Though they didn't like to be ruled by Normans (also the Lions are Normans of course) at all. This explains why they fight against the Lions in some sets.

Plus the Black Knights were released the same time as the Forestmen. Those Forestmen clearly are Robin Hood and his merry men, trying to come by the ransom for they want Richard be free. Those outlaws appeared when the barons gained their dominance, in other words: Forestmen appeared when the Dragons appeared.
David Girard wrote: That's the theories I made after many hours of analyse of the Lego castles sets and catalogs.
Hehe, I like such theories as you can see above :-)
Thanks for sharing!


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Post by David Girard »

I see I'm not the only crazy. You(Jojo) has surely past many hours of analyse for putting out these theories.

But your story lack one thing. How did you explain that Lions are attacking Flacons on 6062, if Falcons are loyal ?

I don't think you could compare Lego to true history. There is no comparison.
The crest suggest that the Lions are England, the Falcons, Germany, and the Dragons Norman or Saxons. But that does not make sense in history. Germany wasn't subordinate to England. And Norman were the ones who conquered England in 1066. About 100 years before the Robin Hood story and the King Richard.

However, your theories are interestings.

Sets like 6018, 6057 and 6059 put some problems in my story. Your I'll tried to make a sense to this.

However we can find something here. It seems that Falcons are more inclined to fights than other. Because, they are always implicated when there is fighting !
This is why the "King's Castle" 6080 doesn't have a king. The king is absent. He's on crusade.
Here I'm not agree. Look carefully on the 6080 box. There is a king. I see him. That's the only horse knight that has a Yellow Shield. And more: He has two flags. Other have only one. There is a king too in 6085. And Duke in 6073 and 6074 !

We have to solve some mysteries again. :wink:
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Post by Jojo »

Hello!

David Girard wrote:I see I'm not the only crazy. You(Jojo) has surely past many hours of analyse for putting out these theories.
Yes :-)

[qote="David Girard"]But your story lack one thing. How did you explain that Lions are attacking Flacons on 6062, if Falcons are loyal ?[/quote]
Well, those Saxons needed to be forced to become loyal first... Some gently pressure to convince them....

[quote="David Girard]I don't think you could compare Lego to true history. There is no comparison.[/quote]
At least the Lions are called "Crusaders". That's certainly a comparison with real history. I admit they haven't been called that way in German Catalogues and I never considered them "crusaders" until I first discovered Lugnet.
David Girard wrote:The crest suggest that the Lions are England, the Falcons, Germany, and the Dragons Norman or Saxons. But that does not make sense in history.
I'm not sure about the Falcons considered Germans since there hasn't been an unite Germany back the. However, the colour scheme and the crest of the Crusaders was most likely inspired by English knights from the ...well... Crusader's age. And so was the name they gave them.

David Girard wrote:And Norman were the ones who conquered England in 1066. About 100 years before the Robin Hood story and the King Richard.
Yes. But those Normans still were present 100 years later :-) And they indeed opressed the Saxons (like the Saxons had opressed the Celts before....)

And, hey! Those forestmen ARE Robin Hood and his merry men. It couldn't be more distinct. I named this green guy "Errol Flynn" at first glance :-) So the remaining story should fit, too.

David Girard wrote:Sets like 6018, 6057 and 6059 put some problems in my story. Your I'll tried to make a sense to this.
Oh... 6018 is a problem of its own....
David Girard wrote: However we can find something here. It seems that Falcons are more inclined to fights than other. Because, they are always implicated when there is fighting !
Those poor guys always get attacked! They live in permanent state of defence!

myself wrote:This is why the "King's Castle" 6080 doesn't have a king. The king is absent. He's on crusade.
David Girard wrote:Here I'm not agree. Look carefully on the 6080 box. There is a king. I see him. That's the only horse knight that has a Yellow Shield. And more: He has two flags. Other have only one. There is a king too in 6085. And Duke in 6073 and 6074 !
True. However, the highlighted knight doesn't carry any regalia that would show he's "the king". He might be just the lord of the castle, the reeve, the King's son...

Of course TLG didn't set a distinct story. Everybody is free to invent an own story. That's the good thing about the early Legoland Castle World.


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Post by David Girard »

Hi,
I'm not sure about the Falcons considered Germans since there hasn't been an unite Germany back the
From about 800 to about 1200/1300, Germany was a nation. It was call, in french, "Le Saint Empire Romain Germanique". I don't know how to translate it. Germany was powwerful and his territory goes from North Sea and Baltic Sea to Mediteranean Sea. It include the north half of actual Italia and Rome too. I can't confirm you that falcons, represent their crest at this time. It's above 1200/1300 that thing become less clear until about 1800. When Germany was again a true nation.
But those Normans still were present 100 years later :-) And they indeed opressed the Saxons (like the Saxons had opressed the Celts before....)
Yes, but Norman are the same as the Saxons. Norman come from Saxe. Saxons too. The Norman are Saxons and from 800 to 1000 attacked north coast of continental Europa. In 911, France, make an arrangement with them for stopping these attack. They give to Saxons a portion of land (about the actual Normandy) to stop the ravages. Then, in 1066, from Normandy (They were now called Normans), the Duke of Normandy(A decendant of the Saxons chief) decided to conquer England. So when Normans conquered England, they oppressed Saxons. But they lived without much troubles. So Saxons and Normans are the sames...And it from this point (1066) that England start to became a nation, and they started to use Lions as their flags.

So at the crusade time (1096-1270), there was 3 great nation, fighting together against arabs: Germany, France and England. Saxons were no more a problem.

If Lego would had respect history, they should has made a faction with Lys flower at the place of the Dragons.

This is why we can not compare with history. I like to think thats Lego Castle is a representation of the kind of life in medieval time, but if there is ressemblance, it is unintentional. Forestmen refer directly to Robin Hood, however, but it's only a legend. There is no proove of the existence of a such Robin Hood. :wink:

Who is Errol Flynn ?


The debate is interesting... :lol:
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Post by architect »

Errol Flynn was a famous actor who played Robin Hood in the 1938 movie: The Adventures of Robin Hood.

http://www.errolflynn.net/Filmography/rh.htm
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Post by The Dragon Master »

I voted Black Knights, they're cool looking and I love the sheilds.
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Post by David Girard »

Robin Hood (1938), with Errol Flynn seem to be a good film. I think I seen part of this film when I was young.

Thank for the link ! :D
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Post by wlister »

Its a toss up for me between the Black Falcons and the Classic line of 375/6075, 677 and 383. Those were the first sets I ever had and I wish I still had them. Sadly I only have one torso left from the 383 set. Black Falcons on the other hand were the first faction I ever had multiple copies of. I had a nice army of 30 Falcon figs which at the time seemed like a huge army. The emblem and castle set designs leave the Falcons on the cusp of victory, but there is always the memories I have of the first castle sets I had. I just can't decide. For the poll I chose Black Falcons as my other choice was unavailable.
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Post by Stephen »

Jojo, I see what you mean about keeping track of the the various threads within a topic.
From about 800 to about 1200/1300, Germany was a nation. It was call, in french, "Le Saint Empire Romain Germanique". I don't know how to translate it. Germany was powwerful and his territory goes from North Sea and Baltic Sea to Mediteranean Sea. It include the north half of actual Italia and Rome too.
By the dates, you are refering to The Holy Roman Empire, which was founded by Charlemagne (who was actually German - he called himself "Karl" and his capital was at Aachen.) After his death, the empire was divided between his three sons into what today is roughly France, Italy, and Germany/Austria. The son who got the German states also inherited the title of Emperor.

In the Middle Ages, kings were not always absolute rulers. There were always Dukes and Princes (younger brothers of the king) who were theoretically under the king, but who actually acted independently.

Charlemagne's Empire existed in theory throughout the Middle Ages, but over time, the various parts of it became more or less independent. And the kingdoms within the empire also fragmented. William the Conqueror was a Duke of the King of France, but he invaded England on his own.

In my universe, the Falcons, Crusaders, and later Royal Knights are all part of the same kingdom but function independently and may even war on each other sometimes. The Black Knights and the Dragon Masters are different factions within another kingdom. The Wolfpack and Forestmen are people who used to be independent but have been conquered.

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Post by The Wolfpack »

Spearmen however, would regard a shield as an essential piece of kit. it is much harder to parry with a spear than a sword or axe, and while a spear up to 2 and a half meters or so might be better wielded with two hands, a spearman was overall better off, considering protection, if he also carried a shield.
I just wanted to thank Mangus on clearing up my confusion on the whole spear/shield problem. I've still have much to learn on how to build a Lego infantry. :shock: Well, I hope not too much.
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Post by Jojo »

Hello!


(Bringing confusuion again into this thread's succession :-)

David Girard wrote:From about 800 to about 1200/1300, Germany was a nation. It was call, in french, "Le Saint Empire Romain Germanique".
Yes, I'm aware of the existence of the "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation". However, the add-on "Germanique/Deutscher/German Nation" has been added expost. During the middle ages there has not been one German nation. As Stephen already said there have been many kingdoms and dukedoms and dioceses who alltogether constituted the "Holy Roman Empire". Those territories haven't even been all German, parts of northern Italy and Bohemia (That's rough the territory of todays Czechia) also belonged to the Reich's territory. The king of Bohemia has even been an elector when it came to choose a new Emperor.
I can't confirm you that falcons, represent their crest at this time.
Most likely the crest of the Holy Roman Empire (of German Nation) was the "Reich's Eagle", as the eagle had already been the crest of the antique Roman Empire before. But the Reich itself was quite weak. The Emperor didn't have big armies except the men he ruled in his capacity of being a nobleman with his own estates. If the "Emperor" wanted to wage a war he was forced to call on the several kings and dukes who owed him allegiance to bring warriors. These men of course carried the crests of their respective Lords and not necessarily the Reich's Eagle.

Yes, but Norman are the same as the Saxons. Norman come from Saxe. Saxons too. The Norman are Saxons and from 800 to 1000 attacked north coast of continental Europa.
I'm afraid I can't agree with this. Maybe there's a difference in the French meaning of "Saxon" and the ..let's say.. German meaning.

The Normans (= Normen, men from the North) had been the Vikings from Skandinavia who came to attack Europe (as you wrote). Later they settled in France (Rollo Duke of Normandy). There they assimilated to the French culture and language. So when William conquered England in 1088 he also brought along the French language. And the Norman barons in England still spoke French contrary to the Anglosaxonian people living there. They spoke an early form of English (without the french portion).
Those Anglosaxonians had also conquered wide parts of Britannia (In fact "England"), but 2-3 centuries before the Normans. They had come from the Northern part of middle Europe, Saxonia (still three federal states of modern Germany have "Saxon" in their name) and from the continental part of Denmark (Jutland).

In any case "Saxons" and "Normans" are not the same. However, you are right, both were subjects to the king of England. In this meaning they are the same like inhabitants of British Columbia and Quebec are the same :-)
So at the crusade time (1096-1270), there was 3 great nation, fighting together against arabs: Germany, France and England. Saxons were no more a problem.
Besides there was no "Germany" (see above)... you are right, the Saxons were not a problem of world politics. But they still were a social "Problem" within England.
If Lego would had respect history, they should has made a faction with Lys flower at the place of the Dragons.
BTW, the Viking boats had a carved dragonhead on their bow, which lead to these boats being called "Dragons" themselves. Vikings are Normans, so LEGO knights with the Dragon crest can be considered "Normans".
This is why we can not compare with history. I like to think thats Lego Castle is a representation of the kind of life in medieval time, but if there is ressemblance, it is unintentional.

I agree that we must not equate LEGO-middleages with the historic Middle Ages. But we can compare and I see many similarities. However, there is always enough room for own imagination. LEGO just offered the possibility to make an analogy between Legoland Castle and Reality. Also, Lions and Eagles/Falcons are quite common heraldic animals, there's more countries than just England and Germany that have them in their crest.
Forestmen refer directly to Robin Hood, however, but it's only a legend. There is no proove of the existence of a such Robin Hood.
Yes, it's a legend. But also legends base upon reality. ;-)
Who is Errol Flynn ?
You definitely ought to watch "The Adventures of Robin Hood"! It's a great movie that (though being a Hollywod movie) cares for historic accuracy in its style. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0029843/
The debate is interesting... :lol:
It is. Although I'm afraid it tends to become off topic... We ought have moved the topic to the "Real Castles" section in this message board :-)


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Post by David Girard »

Hi Jojo and Stephen,

i didn't want to make an historical debate. This is interesting however. I've not many knowledge in Germany history above about 800 (Where descendants of Charlemagne fights and cut definitely Francia in 2 parts (The Eastern parts will be Germany)). I'm more specialized in France medieval story, and more specifically, Merovingian Dynasty (about 448-751), Carolingian Dynasty (751-987) and Capetian Dynasty (987-1328). That's my main interests.

I just wanted to point you that Lego didn'dt intend to refer to History. They just want to represent medieval life.

P.S. If Germany was not a nation, the term Germany existed in the time of descendant of Charlemagne (About 800).

P.S.I always think that Normans come from Sax ! Maybe I'm wrong. I have to revise my history ! :oops:
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Post by The Wolfpack Boss »

Out of all three groups, I'd have to say I like the Black Knights the best. I mean, even after the 'Black Monarch' died, and some 'Dungeon Master' took over the Black Knights and reoutfitted them, the Monarch was still stubborn enough to remain behind as a ghost and pester the world. Of course, there was always the element of mystery to them too (if he was a ghost, he had unfinished business-just how legitimate was the death of the Black Monarch, and just what part did the 'Dungeon Master' play in it?), at least that's how my imagination saw it.

But the all time greatest faction is the Wolfpack. Three men at the base, two on smuggling and a few agents scattered around the land spying on powerful castles, they didn't need numbers, they had skill.
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Post by Stephen »

Jojo and David,

I find this discussion fascinating.
(Jojo wrote) Yes, I'm aware of the existence of the "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation". However, the add-on "Germanique/Deutscher/German Nation" has been added expost.
I find that curious as well. Charlemagne's empire was divided into 3 parts after his death. Maybe "Germanique" was added to distinguish between the parts after the empire was divided. (?)
(Jojo wrote) Those Anglo-Saxons had also conquered wide parts of Britannia (In fact "England"), but 2-3 centuries before the Normans. They had come from the Northern part of middle Europe, Saxonia (still three federal states of modern Germany have "Saxon" in their name) and from the continental part of Denmark (Jutland).
I agree. The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes came from the Germanic countries and began ariving in Britian as the Roman Empire was declining. These were the people King Arthur was fighting. It was at this same time that the Franks began moving into Gaul, (which later became France.)
(David wrote) I just wanted to point out that Lego didn't intend to refer to History. They just wanted to represent medieval life.
I agree with this too. The sets from the 1980's were relatively historical but still left room for creativity. The LEGO Company wasn't necessarily trying to recreate history, but they did manage to preserve the spirit of history. Later sets began to include more and more fantasy (dragons, wizards, witches, ghosts). I like the earlier sets better, (although I'll take what I can get.)
(Jojo wrote) We ought have moved the topic to the "Real Castles" section in this message board


Good idea Jojo. Maybe you should start a new topic for historical discussions?

Stephen
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