Cannons: Castle?

[Lord_Of_The_LEGO]

Do you think cannons are part of castle life? I'm not historian, but I don't think they belong in medieval times.

[Loneranger]

I think they are because they had them around castle times but they blew up all the time so they stopped useing them. (untill they made a better cannon)
plus, since this is not a castle land role-play and we can have elves and drawfs and undead guys walking around. I think we can add cannons too

LR

[Sir Smittens]

Sorry whoever wants cannons...but I don't believe in gunpoweder of any type in castle times (even though there was).

--Caleb

[porschecm2]

While I had to vote "yes", cannons are medieval, in the strictly historical sense, I must argue that the Lego world is far from historical, for most of us. What Lego portrays is the romantic tales of chilvalry; dashing knights on daring steeds rescueing damsels in distress from ogres and one eyed giants all the while battling the local dragon. While I do endorse a fair ammount of accuracy, and I think cannons are quite allowable in some MOCs, as a whole, I do not consider cannons and other gunpowder devices to be 'castle'. Again, though cannons do have a base in historical accuracy, they do not belong in a 'romantic representation' of medieval times, which is, in essence, what "classic castle" is.

Cm2

[JPinoy]

Yes, its a part of it. The first guns/cannons came out as tube launched spears and arrows in China during the Middle Ages in Europe.

They should go to the east again in a new Castle subtheme.

[Barbapple]

hmmm........
Remember when everyone had the controversy over Ninja:Castle?
Remember the main disagreement? Gunpowder.
Now, I'm no expert, but doesn't it take a butload of gunpowder to use a cannon?

[Formendacil]

Historically speaking, gunpowder existed and was used by the Europeans during the era known as the Middle Ages, before the Renaissance, the MEDIEVAL time-period. Gunpowder and cannons are thus a legitimate part of a historical depiction of medieval times. I am thus regretably forced to vote that they are indeed, medieval.

I do not, however, use them in my creations, or refer to them in my general consideration of medieval times. Gunpowder might be authentically medieval, but it isn't medieval in the popular, or fantastical sense, and that is the sense in which I generally perceive things.

[Jennifer]

yes..

[TwoTonic Knight]

Cannon came into use in Europe during the first half of the 14th century (1300s). Firearms the latter half of the same century. Both were fairly ineffective on the battlefield to start with, but cannon became increasingly effective against castles as the century progressed, though still of dubious use on the battlefield.

So, even if you want to take the earliest date quoted for the start of Renaissance (1400, though most historians compartmentalize a given area as passing into the Renaissance, rather than all of Europe at once), cannon and firearms both fall within the medieval period.

That doesn't mean all sieges were conducted with cannon, or gunpowder appeared on every battlefield, though both became more and more common throughout the 1400s. And it certainly doesn't mean that you have to feel compelled to use them yourself.

[wlister]

I voted no.

Strictly for the reason that to me gunpowder and cannons were a death knell for the "romatic" western european medieval period. I'd prefer a romanticized version of history than the reality of great fortresses being shot full of holes and towers being knocked down with cannons. I'm not interested in Eastern/Chinese history although I am familiar with some of it, it may have been from the same time period, but it's not Classic-Castle in my opinion. Warfare lost something with the advent of firearms and at least in a Lego sense, firearms will never be part of my world. I bolded a few points to prevent a flame war. I'm not an expert and these are just my opinions. This is the way I look at castle building with LEGO, not how I think things happened in real life.

Will

[rogue27]

If you want to use a Cannon in your Castle MOC, you better rip a couple towers off of the castle and put lots of holes in the walls.

Effective cannons played a role in castles losing their effectiveness and eventually led to castles no longer being constructed.

[Formendacil]

I voted no.

Strictly for the reason that to me gunpowder and cannons were a death knell for the "romatic" western european medieval period. I'd prefer a romanticized version of history than the reality of great fortresses being shot full of holes and towers being knocked down with cannons. I'm not interested in Eastern/Chinese history although I am familiar with some of it, it may have been from the same time period, but it's not Classic-Castle in my opinion. Warfare lost something with the advent of firearms and at least in a Lego sense, firearms will never be part of my world. I bolded a few points to prevent a flame war. I'm not an expert and these are just my opinions. This is the way I look at castle building with LEGO, not how I think things happened in real life.

Will

You put it better than I did, but these are my sentiments too, thanks wlister! And I am talking about both the cannon topic, and the later reference to the oriental middle ages (which did not occupy the same time-frame, nor was there any contact between the cultures. Hence, while they both might be medieval: they were SEPARATE medieval periods, and thus unconnected).

But wait! I dodn't say that: I think I hear JPinoy coming!

*runs away from computer*

[doctorsparkles]

I use cannons in my creations (though I only own two). In my Lego world, dwarves are explosives experts (like in the Warcraft games) and have created firearms, cannons and bombs.

[Glencaer]

(which did not occupy the same time-frame, nor was there any contact between the cultures. Hence, while they both might be medieval: they were SEPARATE medieval periods, and thus unconnected).

There was some contact. Several Popes sent expeditions to the Mongol Khans of the thirteenth century (1200's) - often trying to arrange an alliance against the Mamluks of Egypt. In the 1300's the alliance almost got off the ground between Mongol Ilkhans in Persia and the Crusaders, but alas, it never quite did.

However, the term "Medieval" is difficult to apply evenly to both western and eastern cultures because the term was created to describe an era of western civilization (seperating the "classical" roman period and the "modern" era of 1600+).

Moving on to the topic at hand, I see medieval warfare as not just being non-gunpowder, but also blade-based. For example, in 1200 most weapons were blade based (swords, spears, etc - with smaller blades on arrows, etc), and none were gunpower based. As history progressed, the ratio went from 100-0 to 0-100 (% blade to gun).

So, the rate progressed as so: 95-5 , 85-15, 75-25, 60-40, 50-50, 25-75, 0-100.

I'm not precisely sure exactly when cannon/handguns were first introduced into Europe, but I can say that the era that saw the demise of swords (being 0-100), etc was ~1860 at the advent of the American Civil War (perhaps the first true Modern War). (Dragoons were a force of Napoleon's cavalry that used swords and took advantage of the time it took to reload rifles - the first volley would be fired, the dragoons would charge and while the men were reloading, the Dragoons would cut them down with swords).

But in regards to LEGO Castle, I saw add guns if you want them, but warfare should be primarily swords, etc. Also, I like basic pre-gun cannons (like wooden canons, etc) and am prolly gonna make one for BrickFest DC this summer.

-Lenny

[Formendacil]

I like your blade-based system, but I'm not sure that we're 0-100 even now. I mean, the army still uses knives to a certain degree, and certain non-professional fighters (gangs and guerillas come to mind) make use of knives.

I agree though that we are almost total gun/explosives based. Say: .01/99.99

I did know about the pope's attempts at establishing ties with China and the Mongols, but I think the basic premise of my idea remains valid: the two medieval periods had little contact or influence on each other, and for the most part remained self-contained.

The world inbetween, the Islamic/Byzantine world, obviously was affected strongly by both, in the form of the Crusades and the Mongol invasions, but the two medieval cultures (Europe and Japan/China) had no direct contact with each other, and the majority of the people within their cultures never knew or saw anything about the other culture.

(I hope that seems coherent. Please note, I not an expert on this subject, AT ALL!)