Throwing out another data point into the mix, I'm being chaotic in a way
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
It's funny that you mention this-- In my AFOL History Project research, I read through a bunch of Todd's old posts back when he was writing the Fibblesnork guide. Todd was NOT a castle guy by any stretch of the imagination. One snippit of the conversation from early 1997:Kosh wrote:I *DO* give some credibility to the following source http://www.lugnet.com/fibblesnork/lego/guide/castle/ Todd Lehman created the Fibblesnork LEGO Guide relatively close to the time frame of the set release
As for 6018, I think it was fully intended to be a Black Knight set, but thanks to the heraldry, I have to go with Black Falcon. If you're going to judge a minifig's affiliation based on the torso/leg combination rather than on what he's carrying, you'd have to take a serious look at many other figures and re-assign them too. One of the better examples being the mounted knight in 6041. He's carrying a Crusader shield and Crusader flag, but he's got a blue torso with black arms-- the staple of Black Falcon attire. In fact, you won't find ANY other Crusader with a blue torso.Todd Lehman wrote:I think I currently have these minifigs classified as Black Knights -- is that the best categorization for them?Darrell Kienzle wrote:The Black Falcons were never an official subtheme, at least in the catalogs I have.
Ah, the Fibblesnork Guide, the mother of all fan-created LEGO set guides throughout the internet. It lead to the Lugnet Set Guide (also Todd's baby), it largley influenced the BrickLink set catalogue, and certainly establish a basis for the Brickpedia set guide. However, we must keep in mind that all these fan-created guides are just that: fan-created. Of course there are always good reasons to have a certain point of view on some sets, but none of them are official. Which means: I don't claim my own point of view to be the "right" one, either. I just think it is reasonable to see it the way I do, while other opinions also have weight.Kosh wrote: I *DO* give some credibility to the following source http://www.lugnet.com/fibblesnork/lego/guide/castle/
Your comments on the consistancy of the various factions gave me a thought. Consider the names 'Crusader' and 'Black Knight' in their historical context. While LEGO has avoided the aspect of organized religion in their toys, the Crusades as military campaigns brought together many different nationalities and ethnic backgrounds under a common intent. Therefore a 'Crusader' could have a wider range of armor and heraldry. 'Black Knight' on the other hand is a term for a mercenary soldier. The heraldry they carried would belong to the ruler paying the 'Black Knight', and their armor could come from a number of sources.davee123 wrote:Ultimately, this is my biggest beef with the "classic" factions of the Crusaders, Black Falcons, and Black Knights-- the Black Knights especially. The uniforms were VERY different from figure to figure.
The Black Falcons were actually pretty good-- all their foot-soldiers from 1984-1989 had Black Falcon emblems on the toros, had black arms, black helmets, and black legs. The waists were occasionally red, and they wore either bullet helms or flare helms, but otherwise were nicely consistent. Then in 1990, we have the ambiguous Battle Dragon, and Knight's Stronghold (featuring blue legs on a Black Falcon soldier, and a breastplate torso). And in 1992, we have Black Falcon soldiers with gray legs. But for 6 years, their soldiers were VERY consistent, and easy to identify.
The Crusader soldiers were more varied. They had black, blue, gray, or red legs, black or dark gray helms, and torsos with either cross-axes, lions, or breastplates. The only constant thread was red torsos with blue arms, with ONE exception in 1991 with the 1480 King's Catapult (which honestly was probably a similar "mistake" situation like 6018).
But the Black Knights were the most rag-tag bunch of misfits ever. Their soldiers have NO consistency whatsoever-- torso color, helmet color, arm color, torso design, whatever. They USUALLY wore chain mail, but so did a couple Crusaders, and so did some of the later Royal Knights. There's just no way to tell.
The KNIGHTS of each theme are a little crazier. Again, Black Falcons and Crusader Knights are ~sorta~ consistent, but there are a few exceptions. The Crusaders have that one wacky knight with a blue torso, and the Black Falcons have the one outcast with red arms. But otherwise, they follow SOME rules with torso colors. But the Black Knights again ruin everything-- no consistency whatsoever. They've got every helmet color, every leg color (even white!), every torso color, and every arm color of those available in the castle lineup.
Anyway, the Black Knights are a bunch of losers suffering from an identity crisis. The way you get Black Knights is by putting Crusaders, Black Falcons, Dragon Masters, and Royal Knights in a blender and taking whatever pansy-looking design pops out.
DaveE
This is what I've always assumed was the practical matter behind the case. But I'm also curious how folks here might attempt to explain the reason why the Durmstrang Ship is carrying the Black Falcon's arms (set #4768: http://media.peeron.com/pics/inv/setpic ... 858594.jpg).davee123 wrote:... or that it was included in order to use up extra printed shields ...
Leftover from the Legends sets that were released in 2001 maybe?Frank_Lloyd_Knight wrote:This is what I've always assumed was the practical matter behind the case. But I'm also curious how folks here might attempt to explain the reason why the Durmstrang Ship is carrying the Black Falcon's arms (set #4768: http://media.peeron.com/pics/inv/setpic ... 858594.jpg).
Highly unlikely, I'd say, given that Durmstrang was a 2005 set (postdating the colour-change), and is the one example on [url=http://www.peeron.com/inv/parts/3846p45]this page[/i] of the shield in "medium stone" (which is to say "new grey" or "bley"), rather than the many old grey examples, including the re-released Black Falcon's Fortress (the rereleased Guarded Inn had only the yellow-rimmed shield).nanuck95 wrote:Frank_Lloyd_Knight wrote:Leftover from the Legends sets that were released in 2001 maybe?
There's no good answer, read the thread for a re-cap! (Personally, I say it's a BF boat, but you could argue otherwise)krzyzak wrote:So is this boat a BF, or a BK?