"When" is LEGO castle?

[Ye Olde Republic]

What do you think our timeframe is here? 1200, 1300, 1400...? I'm no expert on history, but when I saw Timeline, they claimed it to be in the mid-1400's and had gunpowder/cannons. I'm just looking for a bit of opinion and advice so I can sort of 'standardize' my stuff and there wouldn't be a lot of anachonism.

If I remember correctly, the crusades were over in the early 1200's?

[TwoTonic Knight]

What do you think our timeframe is here? 1200, 1300, 1400...? I'm no expert on history, but when I saw Timeline, they claimed it to be in the mid-1400's and had gunpowder/cannons. I'm just looking for a bit of opinion and advice so I can sort of 'standardize' my stuff and there wouldn't be a lot of anachonism.

If I remember correctly, the crusades were over in the early 1200's?

The story was set during the 100 years war. Alas, I forget what actual year the book/movie quoted - I seem to recall thinking the armor shown in the movie was too late for the actual period. Searching around on the net - 1357 (mid-14th century, not 1400's). And the armor depicted is more appropriate to Agincourt (1415) than Potiers (1356). The Crusades were petering out somewhere around the early through mid 1200's. Anyway, Timeline was a poor book (flat-out badly written), but a somewhat more enjoyable movie.

Lego castle is a variety of eras. The norman/viking helmets with nasal go back before 1000 AD. The Kettle Hat was popular around 1300 and continued in use throughout the rest of the medieval period. Robin Hood is moved around a bit in time, but vaguely 1100's. The armet helm with movable visor moves us deep into the 1400's. Scale armor is used primarily because it is easier to print than chain, but it could be used throughout the medieval period. It was used less and less after the Battle of Crecy (1346) when the English longbow had no great problem penetrating chain. From there, increasing emphasis was placed on plate armor.

Cannon were increasingly used during the hundred years wars for seigework (and on through the War of the Roses in the mid-late 1400's). Edward I used gigantic trebuchets in the late 1200's, as a counter-point. Field artillery lagged behind as designers tried to cast cannon light enough to be practical and not be more of a danger to the crew than the target, but they were empoyed in the 1300's, if not very effectively until the 1400's.

The Castles themselves - as noted somewhere else - tend to move deeper into the medieval period as the line itself aged. They also grew more fanciful, so it's harder to use them as a dating device.

[LEGOFREAK]

What about the fright knights and the dragon masters?
Hmm say twelve hundred and never?

I crack me up..

I would say that if you are going to build in a specific period, pick that period first, and then find the parts that fit.. that way you wont have to standardize your stuff. - you will allready know what to look for.

I like to build in styles ranging all over time, from cavemen to the 1800's (not to mention the fantasy stuff)

A good question though, oft repeated, never answered satisfactorily...

LF

[Christopher McCleerey]

"...between twelve hundred and never"

LEGO Castle seems to have started out as a romantic view of history. Then fantastic. Then fantasticly strange. And now just plain nuts with a little bit of romantic thrown back in. *sigh*

Yes, pick and choose. It's all over the place.

C

[TwoTonic Knight]

What about the fright knights and the dragon masters?
Hmm say twelve hundred and never?

I crack me up..

I would say that if you are going to build in a specific period, pick that period first, and then find the parts that fit.. that way you wont have to standardize your stuff. - you will allready know what to look for.

I like to build in styles ranging all over time, from cavemen to the 1800's (not to mention the fantasy stuff)

A good question though, oft repeated, never answered satisfactorily...

LF

With the exception of the fluted breastplate which kinda exits into the Renaissance, the Fright Knights are wonderfully generic in their torsos and can be from any time, any where in Europe, though vaguely 1200's would work nicely. The reviled bat-wing helmet seems to be something of a barrel helm or sugar-loaf helm appropriate to the 1200's. Kinda. Sorta. I suspect an influence from Sergei Eisenstein's film, Alexander Nevsky. Perhaps via way of the Ralph Bakshi's perversion of the battle scenes of the Ice Slaughter (from the same film) for the bat wings.

And speaking of perversions God Only Knows where one might place the Dragon Masters. In the trash? Okay, I'll key on the helmet, often refered to as the "Roman helmet". Actually, it is a sallet with the visor fixed in the up position and some rather rare cheek guards (that give it that roman look). And some funky decorations along the crown that make it look more Roman and less Gothic, also. Anyway, that was popular in Northern Europe in the 1400's - you can see glimpses of plate armor on some of the torso prints.

I suppose I should mention the kite shield (oval shield) which was from early in the medieval period, and the heater (triangular shield) from more of the middle period. Shield shapes got positively funky in the later period and were often dropped altogether with full plate.

Most of the early stuff can be used with the later stuff - the latest design was not the only design. If you use plate you are firmly moving into the latter half of the 1300's through the 1400's. Leave it out (along with at least the armet) and you can get away with most of the earlier period. Or just chuck historical accuracy and use your own invented world.

[LEGOFREAK]

What about the fright knights and the dragon masters?
Hmm say twelve hundred and never?

I crack me up..

I would say that if you are going to build in a specific period, pick that period first, and then find the parts that fit.. that way you wont have to standardize your stuff. - you will allready know what to look for.

I like to build in styles ranging all over time, from cavemen to the 1800's (not to mention the fantasy stuff)

A good question though, oft repeated, never answered satisfactorily...

LF

With the exception of the fluted breastplate which kinda exits into the Renaissance, the Fright Knights are wonderfully generic in their torsos and can be from any time, any where in Europe, though vaguely 1200's would work nicely. The reviled bat-wing helmet seems to be something of a barrel helm or sugar-loaf helm appropriate to the 1200's. Kinda. Sorta. I suspect an influence from Sergei Eisenstein's film, Alexander Nevsky. Perhaps via way of the Ralph Bakshi's perversion of the battle scenes of the Ice Slaughter (from the same film) for the bat wings.

And speaking of perversions God Only Knows where one might place the Dragon Masters. In the trash? Okay, I'll key on the helmet, often refered to as the "Roman helmet". Actually, it is a sallet with the visor fixed in the up position and some rather rare cheek guards (that give it that roman look). And some funky decorations along the crown that make it look more Roman and less Gothic, also. Anyway, that was popular in Northern Europe in the 1400's - you can see glimpses of plate armor on some of the torso prints.

I suppose I should mention the kite shield (oval shield) which was from early in the medieval period, and the heater (triangular shield) from more of the middle period. Shield shapes got positively funky in the later period and were often dropped altogether with full plate.

Most of the early stuff can be used with the later stuff - the latest design was not the only design. If you use plate you are firmly moving into the latter half of the 1300's through the 1400's. Leave it out (along with at least the armet) and you can get away with most of the earlier period. Or just chuck historical accuracy and use your own invented world.

so basically what you are saying is: if it doesnt fit get a bigger hammer?

[TwoTonic Knight]

so basically what you are saying is: if it doesnt fit get a bigger hammer?

"When all else fails, get a bigger hammer and MAKE it fit!"
-J.Holmes

Absolutely! You have hit the nail upon the head, so to speak.

Please don't ask me to explain the spurious attributation!

[Jedipawn]

My ideas behind the time frame was always the early 1200s, but as already stated, I just made my castles in "now" time. I.e. I made them now, and play with them. If it looks good together then I used it. My two sence worth.

[JPinoy]

Castle Ninja was set at a much later time period around the 1500s, during the "Era of the Country at War".

[groovyd2001]

I would belive that most of the lego sets take place in the 1200's to late 1400's. As for the sets that involve dragons take place in waht ever time you want them to take place because there never were any dragons or so thats what they want us to think **looks around**

[TwoTonic Knight]

Castle Ninja was set at a much later time period around the 1500s, during the "Era of the Country at War".

If you use the firearms, it pretty much sets it as post-Portuguese arrival (somewhere just before 1550). Arrrr, matey, but this be not Classic-Pyrate.com. You can jettison the muskets and safely go back to a time frame consistent with Castles.

[Troy T. Moore]

I don't use any firearms in my world. I have always veiwed the time period as "transitional" (early to mid 1300's) The conical helms with nasal I (Normanesque for sure as are the kite shields) I attribute to cultural/technological/geographical/economical differences. Again this is just in my world. The helms, with the exception of the aforementioned "roman/dragon master" helm are very well done (which is why mine stay in a bag in a drawer)

[Ye Olde Republic]

Thanks guys. I'm not too worried about historical accuracy so sorry if I mislead anyone. I have always looked at LEGO as kind of a 'cartoon' so 100% accuracy in my buildings isn't a top priority, just that I like what I build. Mostly why I was looking for a timeframe was so that I can have a time line for *my* story to follow and it really has nothing to do with history as my LEGO world is filled with dragons, wizards and magical beasts etc.

One of the first things I learned from building my Star Wars MOC's is that when using LEGO, there HAS to be some give and take. Sometimes and angle is perfect and the next time you have to use the best method LEGO allows for. You decide where your tolerances lie.

[Magnus]

I am most familiar with the middle ages in Great Britain, and certain styles of castle architecture or armour may have cropped up earlier or later in other parts of Europe. Lego takes its inspiration formall over the place, and sometimes certain factions are equiped with stuff that doesn't really fit together historically speaking. Generally, the middle ages are consider from about 1000 to about 1500.

Here are a couple of key points I associate with the military development in the middle ages.

1000s

The end of the Viking age. The Norman invasion of England. Social system of feudalism, which meant that armies were recruited based on service and duty to the king.

Wooden and motte and bailey castles plus early stone castles.

Chain mail for the richest warriors, only. The beginning of knights as we would know them

1100s

The Crusades. The crusaders learned a lot from their enemies in terms of castle building and siege machinery. Feudalism beginning to crumble already, as drafted armies begin to make way for hired mercenaries.

Stone castles becoming the norm in Europe. Builders begin to experiment with octagonal and rounded designs of towers.

The idea of chivalry developing, and with it the notion of the knight as a cultured sort of gentleman as well the elite soldier he was already. At this point, the knight was perhaps at his most powerful militarily.

1200s

The height of English wars against the Welsh, Irish and Scots.

Stone castles reached their zenith with multiple sets of walls, projecting towers and outer gatehouses and the like.

The movie Braveheart is pretty accurate in terms of depiction of weapons and equipment from this period. It becomes the norm in this period for knights to wear closed faced helmets. Lowly but disciplined infantry are slowly beginning to challenge the knight's position as lord of the battlefield.

1300s

Black death ravages Europe and has major reprecussions for the social system. Hundred Year's War between France and England begins. Many of the soldiers fighting in this war would have been paid volunteers.

The English archers become known as excellent troops who can bring down knights on the battlefield with relative ease. Italian crossbowmen and Swiss pikemen are developing similar reputations.

By this point plate armour would be used, especially in certain areas, like the limbs and breast. Helmets with movable visors would be coming into use, perticularly on the continent. (England would lag behind a little in this regard). Gunpowder was becoming known but was yet to be very effective.

1400s

The culmination of the Hundred Years war and the War of the Roses between English factions.

Few castles were built or begun in his period, but by the ones that are built are more comfortable and spectacular and less solid in their appearance.

Gunpowder slowly becomes a major part of warfare and would be used extensively during sieges, by both sides.

This period sees the development of a completely incasing suit of plate metal armour. Warhorses are now also encased in armour.
Hand-to-hand weapons have also changed. Various sorts of axes and hammers are more effective aginst plate arour than swords and spears, and knights often end up prefering these. Shields get smaller or are completely discarded. Many knights chose to go into battle on foot.

But by this time it was often the low-born but disciplined infantry, armed with missile weapons or long handled pikes and polearms who would often dominate the battlefield. These lowlier troops would make do with various scraps of plate, mail and leather armour.



Phew!

So there you have Magnus's chronological abbreviated military history of the Middle Ages!
How does lego fit into all this?


I regard the original Crusaders and BFs to be sort of 1100-1200s. The two original castles are straightforward square structures. But the Black Falcon's Fortress, with its massive "Double D" style gatehouse is more reminiscent of the 1200s and 1300s.

The Robin Hood legends (if that is who the Forestmen depict), take place during the late 1100s and early 1200s. The kite (teardrop) shield would have been in use probably before 1000 and would have largely been phased out by the 12-1300s, by the smaller type of classic shield. The Black Knights and Dragonmasters who use that shield are in fact equiped with armour more typical of the 1300 and 1400s. The large dark grey round shield would have been in use well before the Middle ages, (the Vikings, and Saxons would have used this sort of shield 700-1000). The torso armour for the fright knights is typical of the later middle ages as far as I can tell.

[JPinoy]

Well... my Ancients Theme uses firearms, even though its not historically accurate. But then it IS a Historical-Fiction story with a mythological kingdom in SE Asia, the Kahilawayan Empire.

I've read several myth stories from China, Philippines, and etc. According to a Chinese myth there was a kingdom to the south of them that was advanced. According to a Visayan (Philippine region) myth an ancient (Altantis-like) kingdom existed long ago in that region.

I do use historical firearm weapons such as "lantakas" or swivel cannons. An offshoot faction from the same empire achieved rocketry though. It was them who keep the secrets and is later discovered by the Chinese.

Other historical non-firearm weapons include kampilans (very large sword), panabas (sickle style swords, almost like the ones Elves in LOTR used), and budiaks (long spears/pikes).